3. PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
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PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
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I've just been given a pcn for parking in a residents only bay, in the street directly behind where I've lived for 4 years. Location is opposite 115 Green Lane, HA73AD.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/ziy7vURKBWDbBggG9?g_st=ac

https://maps.app.goo.gl/BqpEhsJnmnFKPat59

In the past, I've only occasionally parked there when the spaces closer to me are all full. It used to be marked bays, adjacent to single yellow lines, that had no restrictions of any kind.

I parked the other night, and came out in the morning to find the pcn. There are no signs at all, next to any of the bays, there is even a signpost that is empty of any sign. That day I walked down the hill for about 80 metres and could not see a sign of any description on either side of the road. I queried the pcn with photos showing no signs.

Today I was told by a neighbour there are in fact 2 signs, much further down the hill, it's a one way road, and I've gone to see that they simply say entering a residents only parking area, past these signs. I've never seen this arrangement before, apparently it's called a PPA, but are they allowed to cover this large area of bays, with only 2 inconspicuous signs, which are in total contradiction to all other arrangements for resident's bays in the area, and without any signs next to the specific bays as has been normally the case as long as I've lived in London, some 40 years? I live 50 metres away, in a different road, and shouldn't letters have been sent to nearby residents notifying of the change?

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« Last Edit: December 30, 2024, 08:58:09 pm by Miffed »
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #1 on: »
The road is in Stanmore, part of Harrow Council, and no other road I know of nearby, has this arrangement
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #2 on: »
Please to have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

and post up here both sides of the unredacted PCN and a GSV link to the location.
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #3 on: »
Thank you John UK, I've added the GSV link to my original post, and here is the pcn [ Guests cannot view attachments ] [ Guests cannot view attachments ]

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« Last Edit: December 30, 2024, 09:32:37 pm by Miffed »
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #4 on: »
@Miffed where are these two inconspicuous signs?

We can normally beat an inadequately signed PPA, and looking on GSV I can't see any zone entry signs: https://maps.app.goo.gl/4fAAqaBckkDwuVph8
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #5 on: »
Signs are here - a bit sneaky putting them in at that point in the road. Turning left out of the side road may be a reason not to see them.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/dyK2UV5NTLciL77Z8
« Last Edit: December 31, 2024, 03:45:56 pm by cp8759 »
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote from: cp8759 on December 30, 2024, 10:52:02 pm
@Miffed where are these two inconspicuous signs?

We can normally beat an inadequately signed PPA, and looking on GSV I can't see any zone entry signs: https://maps.app.goo.gl/4fAAqaBckkDwuVph8
The zone is only a short section of Green Lane just past Culverlands Close. Here are the signs: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/segztacJi9JTMkTx8
One cannot drive in from the other end, as it's now blocked off, so no signs needed. There is, however, an "End of Zone" sign for those driving out of Green Lane: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/qUmJAUCTLYXMBaqz5
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #7 on: »
@Miffed can you get us some updated photos?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #8 on: »
Hello all, thanks for the input.

I've just taken pics of the signs, and I've paced them out from where I parked, a total of 190 elongated steps away.

Is this catch all sign enough notification, for so many car spaces when as per my earlier message, I'm used to each bay having it's own sign, so as to be clear. I pride myself on never having had a parking ticket, and this just seems manifestly unfair.  I note there is a side road halfway up to the left signposted "Park Cottages 1-4" and anyone coming out of that road would not see any sign at all.

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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #9 on: »
The view onto Green Lane from Park Cottages 1-4. There is a signpost with no sign. Also, aren't they supposed to include in the pcn a photograph of the signage notifying anyone parking there of the restriction?

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« Last Edit: December 31, 2024, 03:43:03 pm by Miffed »
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #10 on: »
Quote from: Miffed on December 31, 2024, 03:13:32 pm
Hello all, thanks for the input.

I've just taken pics of the signs, and I've paced them out from where I parked, a total of 190 elongated steps away.

Is this catch all sign enough notification, for so many car spaces when as per my earlier message, I'm used to each bay having it's own sign, so as to be clear. I pride myself on never having had a parking ticket, and this just seems manifestly unfair.  I note there is a side road halfway up to the left signposted "Park Cottages 1-4" and anyone coming out of that road would not see any sign at all.
Indeed there isn't, but to get a vehicle into and out of Park Cottages, you have to pass the signs, because the other way in has been blocked off: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/J3nWRoi33wXfVPRb8
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #11 on: »
@Miffed well the obvious next step is for me to get hold of the traffic order, but obviously we have to put a challenge in first as getting the TMO will take some time.

In the meantime do you have any mitigating circumstances, especially anything unrelated to the contravention itself? And do you have a dashcam by any chance?
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #12 on: »
Hi,

No, I don't have a dash cam. Not sure if it's a mitigating circumstance but that night, I was ill with suspected food poisoning. Hence just parking there and not a little further on, where I normally park. I was glad to be getting out of the car at the first opportunity.

Parking order, is that the legislation from the council? As I say parking there was not a problem before, not that I've done it very much, and certainly not for a while. The GSV showing the new signs is 8 months old, so it's been that long this new arrangement has been in place.

All other residents bays in the neighbourhood even those 500m down the hill and close to The Broadway where all the shops are, are only in operation from 3-4pm Mon to Fri. This is a completely incongruent arrangement.

I have challenged the pcn, as soon as I saw it
« Last Edit: December 31, 2024, 03:59:25 pm by Miffed »
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #13 on: »
OP, a Permit Parking Area is defined as follows:

"permit parking area”
   an area—
(a)
into which each entrance for vehicular traffic has been indicated by the sign provided for at item 5 of the sign table in Part 3 of Schedule 5; and

(b)
where any parking place within that area reserved for the use of the permit holders as indicated on that sign is not shown by markings on the road (whether or not an upright sign is placed next to, or near, such a parking place to indicate that only the permit holders in question may use the place)

And this represents the law and would be applied by an adjudicator.

It's possible that the traffic order has not been drafted correctly, but as posted you wouldn't find out until later in the process. These orders need careful crafting because every unmarked(with prescribed traffic signs) length of street is presumed to be a parking place reserved for permit holders GL and must therefore be defined as such in the order. Here there are lengths with no markings, lengths with markings which are not prescribed(the footway parking markings and the white markings by vehicle crossovers) and lengths with prescribed markings(the DYL and School Entrance).
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Re: PPA ZONE but no signs at bays
« Reply #14 on: »
Quote from: Miffed on December 31, 2024, 03:57:13 pm
No, I don't have a dash cam. Not sure if it's a mitigating circumstance but that night, I was ill with suspected food poisoning. Hence just parking there and not a little further on, where I normally park. I was glad to be getting out of the car at the first opportunity.
Do you have any evidence of that? A call to 111, a complaint to the restaurant or takeaway, anything like that?

Quote from: Miffed on December 31, 2024, 03:57:13 pm
Parking order, is that the legislation from the council?
Yes, I've already requested it so you don't need to worry about that.

Quote from: Miffed on December 31, 2024, 03:57:13 pm
I have challenged the pcn, as soon as I saw it
Please show us a copy of what you sent.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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