Author Topic: PCN when genuinely loading  (Read 102 times)

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Baxtinho

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PCN when genuinely loading
« on: November 10, 2023, 06:51:49 pm »
Hi there, first time that I've been ever PCN'd in a loading bay. Part of my job involves dropping off new computer parts to customer/end users, and yesterday I dropped off a printer for a restaurant kitchen at a site in Cheltenham.

I stopped in a loading bay, the attendant must've seen me as when I came out she said I'd been six minutes and their guidelines are to allow five. I have got work documentation including a copy signed by the customer to say that I was there briefly, and on work business - but I don't know how to word my appeal.

I have challenged those fake ANPR private parking Notice To Keeper ones successfully before but never one of these. Any advice greatly appreciated.

PCN attached, and my first draft planned appeal letter. Any replies and advice appreciated.

Bax




*Edited to meet photo attachment standards*
« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 07:17:53 pm by Baxtinho »

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cp8759

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Re: PCN when genuinely loading
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2023, 07:06:43 pm »
Can you please post the text of your draft on here, so that we can edit it?

Also forget about being willing to supply further stuff, it's up to you to provide everything up-front and the council has no duty to consider things you could provide but haven't.

Have you got a delivery note or similar you can send with the representation?

Also please see the guidance here on posting images.
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law. Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament. I am a Conservative councillor, this means some people think I am "scum". I am not a lawyer.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
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Baxtinho

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Re: PCN when genuinely loading
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2023, 07:14:59 pm »
Draft Appeal:

Dear Sirs,
On 8/11/23 I received PCN GD64190398 while loading in a marked bay.
I work for [Redacted] and we work with [Customers Name] supplying their [Technical Terms] equipment. On the date in question they encountered a catastrophic failure of some key hardware and as a result were struggling to trade.
I attended site to deliver a replacement [Piece of Kit] at 14:49 where I was observed by one of your Officers.
There was no clear and apparent signage limiting duration of loading, so once I had completed the delivery I left site, only to be told that I had exceeded five minutes and therefore was in breach of the laws. There are no time restriction signs in the area and as a result, I felt six minutes was an appropriate and fair period of time to be in a designated Loading Bay. I did not use my time parked there to complete any other tasks or to carry out any personal errands, merely to deliver the [Equipment]. You can see details of this [Equipment] as well as the manager of [The Site] signature verifying this attached.
I am happy to provide further authorisation of the work carried out from my employer if required.
Yours faithfully
[Me]
 


I must not have been clear about "further stuff". The only other documentation I have is the sheet signed by the customer, from my office, which has details of my employer, the customer and the standard stuff to which I was referring - the time, date, reason I was on site and a signature from the customer confirming they'd received the new equipment.

M60NJP

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Re: PCN when genuinely loading
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2023, 07:30:29 pm »
You have to be credible! I doubt very much you had any conscous recollection of the time and '...felt 6 minutes...' was anything at all?? This make you seem a little 'odd'! (How would you have known the Council's allowance was 5?) What's wrong with simply saying it took 6 minutes only to unload the item, carry it to whereever, complete the delivery documentation and return to the vehicle?

'Catastrophic failure of hardware'? Their printer stopped working.............

Baxtinho

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Re: PCN when genuinely loading
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2023, 08:00:09 pm »
You have to be credible! I doubt very much you had any conscous recollection of the time and '...felt 6 minutes...' was anything at all?? This make you seem a little 'odd'! (How would you have known the Council's allowance was 5?) What's wrong with simply saying it took 6 minutes only to unload the item, carry it to whereever, complete the delivery documentation and return to the vehicle?

'Catastrophic failure of hardware'? Their printer stopped working.............
Thanks for your reply.

I could not be sure about the precise time, that isn't what I was saying. I have been given a fine, but felt six minutes was an acceptable and reasonable time to be considered as loading, and  therefore feel that a ticket was excessive.

My use of catastrophic was in the sense of complete and totally beyond repair, I can reword if you think they'd be bothered about my semantics. Also, you may not have worked in a busy restaurant kitchen, I can assure you it feels very disastrous when the orders stop coming through  ;) 

slapdash

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Re: PCN when genuinely loading
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2023, 08:28:30 pm »
Walk in. "Heres your kit, sign here" walk out is reasonably loading.

Your account reads a little like - since it is claimed to be mission critical - that you may have plugged it in, demonstrated it was working or similar.

If that inference could be drawn it would be unhelpful.

Baxtinho

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Re: PCN when genuinely loading
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2023, 08:42:31 pm »
Walk in. "Heres your kit, sign here" walk out is reasonably loading.

Your account reads a little like - since it is claimed to be mission critical - that you may have plugged it in, demonstrated it was working or similar.

If that inference could be drawn it would be unhelpful.

Thanks, I see what you're saying. That's exactly what happened, as well as delivering, I got the manager to check the replacement did what was required of it.

Is six minutes considered too long for loading then (in their eyes, not necessarily yours)? How would you go about challenging this, or do you think it's frivolous?

I naively assumed < 10 minutes would be seen as fair enough - but I suppose I don't base that on anything  :-\ 

slapdash

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Re: PCN when genuinely loading
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2023, 07:51:55 am »
I would just be careful about wording if you are still intending to challenge.

I expect the draft you posted will get comment and polish.

Whilst installing it and configuring it etc may not strictly be loading it is reasonable that a customer might want to inspect and check something works. There has to be a bit of a balance.

Is the vehicle registered to you and at your current address ?

If there is a finance co then they would normally get the notice to owner if the pcn remains unpaid. They will charge an admin fee (usually around 30 though often reclaimable if you win). Some may just pay it.

Depending on how risk averse you are it may be worth considering paying the discounted 35 if an admin fee from a lease or similar will be charged.

Baxtinho

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Re: PCN when genuinely loading
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2023, 08:17:27 am »
I would just be careful about wording if you are still intending to challenge.

I expect the draft you posted will get comment and polish.Happy to amend based on peoples' experience, this is my first time

Whilst installing it and configuring it etc may not strictly be loading it is reasonable that a customer might want to inspect and check something works. There has to be a bit of a balance. Thanks, I don't know how other to justify the time spent on site if it wasn't ENTIRELY work and delivery of the new kit-related. I was hoping to play on their compassions a bit I suppose, but that's likely a dead end.

Is the vehicle registered to you and at your current address ?It's a leased company car, so that's how I fight the fake parking fines (Keeper/Driver proof)

If there is a finance co then they would normally get the notice to owner if the pcn remains unpaid. They will charge an admin fee (usually around 30 though often reclaimable if you win). Some may just pay it.

Depending on how risk averse you are it may be worth considering paying the discounted 35 if an admin fee from a lease or similar will be charged. Ordinary I'd fight them all the way and claim back any charges they add, but I'm really skint so can't really afford to go down that route

Incandescent

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Re: PCN when genuinely loading
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2023, 09:49:34 am »
Loading, (as confirmed by adjudications going back to the 90s), includes all activities associated with that like getting signature, finding the person to take delivery, etc. Whether staying while customer checks the device for operation would be within that is something you'd have to put in front of an adjudicator.
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Baxtinho

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Re: PCN when genuinely loading
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2023, 10:38:25 am »
Loading, (as confirmed by adjudications going back to the 90s), includes all activities associated with that like getting signature, finding the person to take delivery, etc. Whether staying while customer checks the device for operation would be within that is something you'd have to put in front of an adjudicator.
Thanks.

Would you just leave out bits about testing then?

Maybe say that I had to wait for the correct person, then it took a minute for them to remove the faulty kit for me to remove.

I still think they were really harsh doing me for six minutes!

Incandescent

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Re: PCN when genuinely loading
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2023, 11:29:32 am »
All I would put is that there was a slight delay in obtaining acceptance of the delivery because the customer insisted on checking the goods were in good order.
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DancingDad

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Re: PCN when genuinely loading
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2023, 02:08:49 pm »
Unless the sign says otherwise, there is no general limit on loading except "as long as necessary"
Inherent within that is "but not one second more"
The five minutes is simply an observation guideline.

I would keep it all simple.
I was delivering X to Y
I delivered the goods, obtained a delivery signature and returned to the car.
Here is a copy of the signed delivery note (and invoice if available)
Please apply the loading exemption

Anything else is padding and as others have said, be careful you don't trip yourself up or imply time that could be argued was unnecessary.

I assume the printer was in a large and awkward box?
Dimensions and weight can help.
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Pastmybest

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Re: PCN when genuinely loading
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2023, 02:49:47 pm »
Unless the sign says otherwise, there is no general limit on loading except "as long as necessary"
Inherent within that is "but not one second more"
The five minutes is simply an observation guideline.

I would keep it all simple.
I was delivering X to Y
I delivered the goods, obtained a delivery signature and returned to the car.
Here is a copy of the signed delivery note (and invoice if available)
Please apply the loading exemption

Anything else is padding and as others have said, be careful you don't trip yourself up or imply time that could be argued was unnecessary.

I assume the printer was in a large and awkward box?
Dimensions and weight can help.

+1 justifying time can come later and getting the goods checked is an allowable part of the loading procedure. It is common that goods are checked before they are signed for
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H C Andersen

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Re: PCN when genuinely loading
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2023, 04:59:54 pm »
+1.

OP, you were given a PCN for parking your passenger car in a loading bay and when you reappeared the CEO had given you a ticket. Absolutely correct based on what they knew.

Don't fall into the trap of reading more into the PCN than this i.e. don't introduce superfluous issues into reps.

I work for ****;
I was instructed to deliver ** to ***;
I parked in the loading bay, delivered the *** and returned as soon possible as I had other deliveries to make;
As this was a delivery, it follows that most of my activity was away from the vehicle and that this would have been unknown to the CEO who, I accept, was simply doing their job on the basis of what they could see.

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