3. PCN on single yellow line - Kingston Upon Thames council
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PCN on single yellow line - Kingston Upon Thames council
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Hi,

A PCN was issued on the windscreen last week after the vehicle was parked on a single yellow line. It was assumed that there was a 5-minute grace period on a single yellow line, although the parking attendant gave zero grace time and said something about it being a "controlled zone". there were no signs that said anything about controlled zones.

The only visible sign nearby was a small one further down the road that mentioned "Mon - Sat, 8am - 6:30pm". Attached is a photo of it as well as the parked car and yellow lines.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/eAxwiF8yW2TYrsza6

Are there any grounds to appeal?

Thanks in advance

R

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« Last Edit: April 22, 2024, 11:51:09 pm by Redeye »
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Re: PCN on single yellow line - Kingston Upon Thames council
« Reply #1 on: »
The sign you have posted is the sign for the yellow line you parked on. So on the face of it, being parked on 16th April, a Tuesday, you were in contravention, hence the PCN.

When you parked on the yellow line, did you look for the controlling sign ? Also what was the purpose for parking there, as there are two exemptions to yellow lines ?

Please also post the back of the PCN, so we can check it for fatal errors of content.

PS: Never, ever, assume anything about parking in London. Streets are patrolled 24x7 and councils make £millions from PCN penalties.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2024, 12:49:23 am by Incandescent »
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Re: PCN on single yellow line - Kingston Upon Thames council
« Reply #2 on: »
Thanks for replying.

To be honest only a glance was given in the search for signage, assuming single yellow lines had a grace period was the mistake by the sound of it.

The reason for parking was to collect food so I doubt that comes under the exemptions!?  ;D

I've attached the back of the PCN just in case.

Many thanks for the advice,

R

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Re: PCN on single yellow line - Kingston Upon Thames council
« Reply #3 on: »
Dear Kingston Council

Ref: PCN   VRM

       
I challenge this PCN as follows:

1. The CEO said to me that this was a controlled zone.  Therefore, I put you to strict proof that the said zone was adequately signed as I approached from.....................insert road/route.


2. The wording of the PCN in terms of the 28 days period is wrong since it does not comply with Schedule 2 para. 2 @   https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2
(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,

In light of this procedural impropriety please cancel the PCN.
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: PCN on single yellow line - Kingston Upon Thames council
« Reply #4 on: »
Thanks Hippocrates, that's really helpful.

Just double-checking point 2 before I write it up - does the front of the ticket not state about the 28 day deadline (see attached)?

Thanks

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Re: PCN on single yellow line - Kingston Upon Thames council
« Reply #5 on: »
Quote from: Redeye on April 24, 2024, 11:35:01 am
Thanks Hippocrates, that's really helpful.

Just double-checking point 2 before I write it up - does the front of the ticket not state about the 28 day deadline (see attached)?

Thanks

Compare the 28 day wording on your PCN to the 28 day mandatory wording in Schedule 2 para 2(d) of the regulations referred to by Hippocrates.

Can you see why the wording on the PCN doesn't comply with the regulations?

(Or at least that's what I think Hippocrates is referring to...)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2024, 11:56:39 am by ManxTom »
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Re: PCN on single yellow line - Kingston Upon Thames council
« Reply #6 on: »
Is it that they've used "this penalty charge was served" instead of "the alleged contravention occurred" ?
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Re: PCN on single yellow line - Kingston Upon Thames council
« Reply #7 on: »
Yes. It has won and also lost at the Tribunal.  But this not the point. It is how they consider that matters.
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IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r
Re: PCN on single yellow line - Kingston Upon Thames council
« Reply #8 on: »
ok great thanks, I'll give it a go.
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Re: PCN on single yellow line - Kingston Upon Thames council
« Reply #9 on: »
@Redeye it's not a controlled parking zone, as we can see from the council map of parking restrictions at https://kingston.statmap.co.uk/map/map.html?login=public&password=&map=%5CMaps%5CKingston%5CGallery%20Maps%5CParking



Please re-post the PCN without any redactions, see the guidance here.

If the CEO thinks it's a zone he might not have taken any photos of any signage, in which case the council would not have any evidence of a contravention at all (and if they don't have the evidence you do not want to tell them that in the representations).
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN on single yellow line - Kingston Upon Thames council
« Reply #10 on: »
That's great info, thanks very much. So it's clear the vehicle wasn't parked in the controlled zone and was parked on a standard single yellow line. Does this make a difference as to whether the CEO should wait 5 minutes before issuing the PCN or not?

I've attached the original PCN without anything blanked out.

The CEO was there taking photos of the vehicle upon arrival at the car. He took photos of the car from a few angles, and the sign that was displayed down the road (see attached)

I did already send the letter (copy of text below) last week as time was running out to get it in before the 14 days.

"Dear Sir/Madam
I write to you in respect of the above Penalty Charge Notice issued to my vehicle which was issued for the alleged reason (parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours).
I challenge this PCN as follows:
1. The CEO said that this was a 'controlled zone'.  Therefore, I put you to strict proof that the said zone was adequately signed as I approached from New Malden High Street and turned left onto Sussex Road.
2. The wording of the PCN in terms of the 28 days period is wrong since it does not comply with Schedule 2 para. 2 @   https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2
(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,

In light of this procedural impropriety please cancel the PCN."




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Re: PCN on single yellow line - Kingston Upon Thames council
« Reply #11 on: »
Well that wasn't the best challenge because where there's an issue around signage, in my view it is best not to say anything about that at all: the last thing you want to do is give the council a chance to go and get plenty of photos of the signage prior to the tribunal hearing.

Anyway, there are no photos showing your car in relation to the sign:













From looking at the photos the sign could be a minute's walk away round the corner. Obviously don't point this out in the formal representations, we don't want them to plug any holes in their evidence.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN on single yellow line - Kingston Upon Thames council
« Reply #12 on: »
That's a good point, I didn't think of that. I guess I'll just have to wait now until I get a reply and see what they say.

For future reference how did you get those photos?

Many thanks,

R
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Re: PCN on single yellow line - Kingston Upon Thames council
« Reply #13 on: »
Quote from: Redeye on April 30, 2024, 10:34:42 am
For future reference how did you get those photos?
https://kingston.self-serve.co.uk/Welcome

Please post the response on here when you receive it.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor or a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193 and I abide by the SPMF service standards.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
Re: PCN on single yellow line - Kingston Upon Thames council
« Reply #14 on: »
@cp8759 - Here's the reply attached. The only thing is that sign is small, set back from the road, and up the road (by a few metres) from where the vehicle was parked. Not sure if that would be worth another try. Interested to know your thoughts.

Many thanks,

R

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