Author Topic: PCN Byron Road, Newham Council, Code 12. Parking paid but using the code visible from my car.  (Read 902 times)

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H C Andersen

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Can you check? GSV doesn't help.

Crysta

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Hello Anderson,

Thanks for the reply. What exactly you would like me to check? I can go to that location in the weekend (2 hrs drive from my place, happy to go again if it helps the case.) Shall I take pictures of all the signs on the Byron Road? Is there any way to know I know if the half road is different? What should I be looking for? Sorry for lots of questions but I am new and not sure how all these works. Appreciate any help. Thanks.

stamfordman

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Can you just tell the story of exactly what you did.


Crysta

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I went to Eastham. I found a parking on a road with the sign of paybyphone. I had an account so I paid with paybyphone using location code shown on the road for two hours. I didn't know what was the road. I just paid what was the location code shown on the sign (70038) as seen in my pics with the car and sign on top. I parked on the passenger side of the road but the sign was on the driver's side of the road. I came back after some time to find a PCN on my car even though I had paid for two hours. I downloaded the receipt from the paybyphone which shows Gladstone Avenue location code 70038 but the PCN states I parked on the Byron Road 70030. All the time, I was parked on the same location (on Byron road opposite to the paybyphone sign 70038). It just looks like they have two area code on the passenger and driver side of the road. As I have paid the parking charge, I appealed uploading all the documents. My appeal was rejected stating below

"Your vehicle was observed at 13:25 Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place where required, or without payment of the parking charge in Byron Avenue. You have stated that you had a valid payment at the time the PCN was issued. I have noted your comments however after reviewing the evidence provided I can confirm that your payment expired at 14:55."

The question is I paid for two hours i.e. 12.55 to 14.55 so how my payment is expired.
Why there are two location code on the same street.
GSV shows entire Byron road is location code 70030 however when I parked the area code was 70038 drivers' side of the road on Byron road and the rest of the signs had 70030 location code.
 
I hope it helps. Thanks
« Last Edit: October 11, 2024, 03:15:31 pm by Crysta »

H C Andersen

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The traffic sign which is in your pic is situated o/s 66/68 which is where GSV puts this traffic sign.

If you live 2 hours away then clearly you took this photo at the time you found the PCN. In fact you took at least 2, one(out of focus- at least on my ipad) showing either 70030 or 36 or 38 you put in post 1. One showing clearly 70038 you posted later. You weren't to know what photos the CEO took, so you took some of your own. Fine.

Pity you didn't post the clear one first, we would have got to the nub quicker!

Anyway, that's history.

Your photo of the even side of Byron shows 70038.
The CEO's photo of your (the odd-numbered)side shows 70030.

A simple, narrow residential road within which there are at least 2 different paybyphone location numbers for locations opposite each other.

Is the above summary correct?

If so it's bonkers.

Grounds: 'Penalty exceeded....circumstances of the case'
You parked; you looked at the clear paybyphone location given opposite and paid using this information. It never crossed your mind and you still find incomprehensible that the council has allocated a different location number to your side than opposite(70030 and 70038 respectively). Even more surprising is that the council isn't simply using these for perhaps administrative and analytical purposes e.g. parking patterns etc. but actually as the basis for enforcing penalties.

You paid the correct tariff demanded by both 70030 or 70038, it is therefore totally unreasonable for the authority to pursue a penalty based simply on the use of a different location number which has been allocated, apparently irrationally and certainly not uniquely, to only one side of Byron Ave. and at least part of Gladstone Road(see the location on the enclosed receipt).

The authority's position might have merit if the tariffs were different or other conditions e.g. varied parking periods, no return times etc. applied. But none of these does apply: this is simply a motorist making a reasonable assumption being caught by the apparent irrational allocation of numbers.

Others will have views.
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RichardW

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The upper sign appears to have been replaced since GSV in March 2022 - an EV parking bay has been added to the right of it, and the top sign updated to show the residents / pay parking is to the left only - and the council appears to have erected the wrong sign. I wonder if there is one in Gladstone avenue that shows the reverse?? 
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stamfordman

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This is getting out of hand.

Crysta - do you have or remember what you said in your initial challenge?

Newham hasn't said anything about location codes in its rejection. As I said they concede payment was made.

I'm not sure anything more than reps saying I see you acknowledge payment for parking but have rejected my challenge. I am asking for cancellation on the grounds that you have clearly accepted parking was paid for at the time of the contravention.

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H C Andersen

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Newham hasn't said anything about location codes in its rejection.

I suppose we're reading between the lines of what otherwise is an incoherent rejection in light of the evidence of a receipt for 70308, Gladstone Ave; a CEO photo showing 70300; and a PCN for non-payment.

But as you say, let's see the challenge.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2024, 06:11:48 pm by H C Andersen »
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Crysta

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Hello All,

Thanks for the reply. I didn't do anything special. Just used the template provided by council as following.

Dear Newham Council Appeals

Penalty Charge Notice number: PN3942539A

I wish to appeal against my Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

I paid to park using my mobile phone but was given a Penalty Charge Notice, so I would be grateful if you would reconsider my case.

I confirm that:

–  As evidence, I attach a screenshot or a receipt of my parking session.
–  I paid enough to cover my stay in the location I was in.
I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely

H C Andersen

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The traffic sign which is in your pic is situated o/s 66/68 which is where GSV puts this traffic sign.

If you live 2 hours away then clearly you took this photo at the time you found the PCN. In fact you took at least 2, one(out of focus- at least on my ipad) showing either 70030 or 36 or 38 you put in post 1. One showing clearly 70038 you posted later. You weren't to know what photos the CEO took, so you took some of your own. Fine.

Pity you didn't post the clear one first, we would have got to the nub quicker!

Anyway, that's history.

Your photo of the even side of Byron shows 70038.
The CEO's photo of your (the odd-numbered)side shows 70030.

A simple, narrow residential road within which there are at least 2 different paybyphone location numbers for locations opposite each other.

Is the above summary correct?
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Crysta

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Yes, Absolutely correct summary @Andersen.

stamfordman

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It's doubtful the location code is wrong although if it were being in close proximity would help. More likely you misread it/it may have had some dirt on the 0 (and you should have only used the code for your bay).

But there's nothing in the codes to argue about in the exchange so far although that's why they issued the PCN but I think you have enough to go on in their concession of payment with an end time.

What can they do? Say sorry your payment not wanted in Byron only Gladstone? Talk about lording it over the commoners.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2024, 07:19:48 pm by stamfordman »
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Crysta

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Thank you all for the input. @Stamfordman, @Andersen, @RichardW

Shall I put below in my representation? Is there any template I can use? I searched the spreadsheet but could't find the suitable.

Representation ground:
The alleged contravention did not occur.

VRN: EA15 FCF
PCN: PN3942539A

Reason: I could not understand why I was issued PCN even though I have paid for the parking as seen in attached receipt from 12.55 to 14.55. My appeal was rejected by the case worker stating "your vehicle was observed at 13.25. I have noted your comments however after reviewing the evidence provided I can confirm the payment expired at 14.55". Case worker acknowledged payment for parking but have rejected my challenge. I am asking for cancellation on the grounds that you have clearly accepted parking was paid for at the time of the contravention.

Upon detailed analysis of the PCN and payment, I realised that it possibly would have occurred that instead of 70300, I would have keyed in 70308 as the numbers sit on top of each other on keyboard. I paid in good faith that I am paying for the parking. As a good citizen, I had no intention of not paying for the parking. Both payments goes to the council so they are not at loss. I can only apologise for the possible error.

Is this enough or should I add/delete? 
I thought of revisiting the area in the weekend but didn't dare thinking I will get another PCN for bus lane or whatever.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2024, 12:22:53 pm by Crysta »

RichardW

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We seem to have lost the thread a bit here...  to me it is clear that there IS an error in the Council's signage, with the sign outside no 66  (opposite where you parked) showing 70038, whereas the street is 70030 (and which is shown on the council's PCN photos, and is possibly on the same side as you parked, and outside No 73) - and of which you have photos clearly contemporaneous to the PCN issue as they show your car with the PCN attached.  I think the representations should be along the lines of:

I deny liability for this PCN on the following grounds:

1.  There was no loss to the council - parking was paid for, albeit for area code 70038 rather than 70030 (see point 2).  See attached payment receipt.

[include payment receipt]

2.  The Council's signage is incorrect in this location leading me to make payment for the 'incorrect' location.  I parked on the road outside No 67, and on the opposite side of the road outside No 66 there is a sign which gives the payment location as 70038 (see attached photos which show my car in place on Bryon road with the PCN in place and the incorrect sign outside No 66 clearly visible and showing 70038).  I made payment as soon as I arrived whilst sitting in my car, using the location code easily visible from the driver's window of my car.  Since this was clearly visible I had no need to search for other signs on the road.  Your photos from the CEO of the event appear to show a sign on the same side of the road as I parked on (possibly outside no 73).

[include your photos showing your car and the sign]

In light of the Council's signage error and payment being made in good faith, it follows the PCN must therefore be cancelled.



Others may suggest enhancements?

There may be other arguments to advance at tribunal if it gets that far (failure to consider reps?).
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stamfordman

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We seem to have lost the thread a bit here...  to me it is clear that there IS an error in the Council's signage, with the sign outside no 66  (opposite where you parked) showing 70038,

Really? Do you mean the OP's pic? It isn't good enough.