Author Topic: PCN, asleep in the car  (Read 675 times)

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estevenin

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2024, 12:17:14 pm »
IMO, your challenge might actually have nothing to do with the relevant issues in this case.

The restriction is part-time, commencing at 8am. So the first question IMO is when did you park?

If after 8am then it's down to your reasons for stopping.

But if before, then it's down to falling asleep and oversleeping!

The two could be related but IMO are different issues.

Between 10.40AM and 11AM roughly. I stopped as soon as I could and layed down for a second. That made me fell asleep. I opened my eyes 20mn later and saw the PCN on the windscreen.

Have you ever been diagnosed with vertigo? Or was this the first time it's happened?

No I don't have any illness. It did happen 2/3 times before in the past, that happens if I force too much during the week and spend too much time sitting and/or the seat position is not straight enough. I also had just worked all night and probably not enough food/water. When this happens I just stop for a few minut to rest and drive home. It is not something usual and if my work rythm is normal never feel dizzy or anything like that.

H C Andersen

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2024, 03:15:04 pm »
Thanks.

In short, you parked where permit parking only was allowed. Your only reference to why you parked where you did, as opposed to why you parked, is in your posts:

For safety reasons I stopped as soon as possible, as I was afraid to cause an accident. I turned for about 3 mn and in that condition this is the safest place I could find, I wasn’t even in a condition to look at signs.

You would have to flesh out how you ended up where you did as being 'as soon as possible' having regard to your route home from work.

I still feel that there are 2 issues here:
Why you parked in contravention;
Why, on seeing your car in contravention with you inside but not in a conscious state(whether asleep or not), the CEO simply issued a PCN and then left(fled) the scene without enquiring about your health.

IMO, you need to put both points to the authority in the same reps but clearly separated.

From the Secretary of State's Statutory Guidance to which councils must have regard and develop and publish policies:

Enforcement authorities should provide enough staff for the volume of work. They should also make sure that those staff (whether employed directly by the authority or by a contractor to deal with informal challenges) have the skills, training, authority and resources to give the public a high quality, professional, efficient, timely and user-friendly service.

cp8759

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2024, 05:11:33 pm »
@estevenin so are you waiting for the notice to owner, or have you received it already?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

estevenin

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2024, 07:19:45 pm »
Thanks.

I still feel that there are 2 issues here:
Why you parked in contravention;
Why, on seeing your car in contravention with you inside but not in a conscious state(whether asleep or not), the CEO simply issued a PCN and then left(fled) the scene without enquiring about your health.

IMO, you need to put both points to the authority in the same reps but clearly separated.

From the Secretary of State's Statutory Guidance to which councils must have regard and develop and publish policies:

Enforcement authorities should provide enough staff for the volume of work. They should also make sure that those staff (whether employed directly by the authority or by a contractor to deal with informal challenges) have the skills, training, authority and resources to give the public a high quality, professional, efficient, timely and user-friendly service.

As for point one, I had gone through 3 streets after finishing my previous job and didn't see any free parking, those are very hard to find in and around London. I know for a fact there is the stansted service area about 7mn drive from where I parked, and it would have been very easy for me to drive there in any other time, but I felt the urgency to stop as soon as possible, I was dizzy and was afraid I would loose control.

As for point two, only they know! I'll respond with both of those points, as I don't have any further to say so far.

@estevenin so are you waiting for the notice to owner, or have you received it already?

I'm waiting for it. They gave me 14 further days to send a medical report. Surely after this delay, whether I respond or not, they'll reply with a refusal, giving me 14 further days to pay the discount, and after that an NTO (Or perhaps the NTO will come directly, for parking, can't remember the procedure).

estevenin

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2024, 05:07:17 pm »
Hi all,

Here's an update on this PCN, the council have cancelled it following my new appeal :

The Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued to you because your vehicle was observed parked in a residents' or shared use parking place without clearly displaying either a permit or a voucher or a pay and display ticket issued for that place.
The contents of your letter have been considered and I can confirm that the Penalty Charge Notice has been cancelled.


Thank you very much @Hippocrates for the help with the procedural improperties of the PCN and the case numbers! Here's what I sent exactly, if this happens to anyone else.

Hope that helps, this case is now closed.

-----------

Thank you for your response. I follow your request, asking for a medical report, that an illness forced me to stop.

1. As previously stated, I am a private hire driver and I have briefly stopped as I felt unwell, after finishing a previous booking. I couldn't keep on driving safely, as I was afraid I'd pass out and cause an incident.
Based on the traffic order at this location:

"Exemptions to the General Prohibition and Parking Places

7. The following Vehicles are exempt from the General Prohibition on Stopping and Waiting and Restrictions on use of parking places as set out in Articles 4, 5 and 8 of this Order:
(c) a Vehicle which is:
(i) required by law to stop; or
(ii) obliged to stop so as to prevent accident injury or damage to persons or property; or
(iii) prevented from proceeding by circumstances outside his control;"

You'v kindly asked evidence that an illness forced me to stop, however I have not mentioned having any illness in my initial message, nor do I believe I have one, this was only a punctual episode, that might have occurred only once or twice in my life, not associated with any illness whatsoever, only due to punctual circumstances.

I would trust that the evidence of me laying down in the car (which you have in your possession), would have been enough to satisfy the following "obliged to stop so as to prevent accident injury or damage to persons or property".

With that said, I have nevertheless try to satisfy your request, and have contacted the GP regarding this. I have received an answer from my GP, saying that a letter from my GP to confirm this, will cost 60GBP and take 28 days to be produced. You will then understand that, it does not make sense to pay a 60GBP GP letter, against a 35GBP PCN, which will anyway arrive after the delay you kindly allowed for sending this.

Please find attached to this letter, the response from my GP for your knowledge.

Without beeing able to provide a medical report, I hope that the existing evidence will be enough to support my point.

2. I note that in your answer that you haven't responded to my concerns regarding as to why, on seeing my car in contravention with me inside but not in a conscious state, the CEO simply issued a PCN and then left the scene without enquiring about my health.

Whilst it would not be against the law to apply a PCN to a deceased person as there have been similar cases before in the past, I find it quite disturbing for a person working for the public, to leave a person in an unconscious state, whether or not the Officer decides to apply a PCN.

In addition to my previous message, I also found out the following facts regarding the PCN in question:

3. The wording used on the PCN is incorrect.

The requirements for the information to be included in a PCN are set out at Schedule 2 of the Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Approved Devices, Charging Guidelines and General Provisions) (England) Regulations 2022. The relevant section being:

“2(d) the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,"

However, the PCN said:

"The Penalty Charge must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which this Penalty Charge Notice was served"

Although the two dates will often be the same, as the PCN in this case does not state what it is required to state it is non-compliant with the Regulatory requirements and the law must always be observed, no penalty could be demanded on the basis of it, this amounts to procedural impropriety.

4. I also see that the allegation in the Penalty Charge Notice is the standardized and rather complex wording of a "12" allegation.

It consists of 43 words and encompasses the possibility of application to four different ways in which a contravention might occur.

The reason for this standardization relates to how the Mayor of London authorizes rates of penalty, however, this does not exempt the local authority from the legal necessity of giving to myself an adequate description of why the claim to penalty is being made.

This is to allow me to be able to make an informed decision as to whether to pay the discount rate or dispute the PCN.
The PCN did not, adequately explain the nature of the allegation, and this is another procedural impropriety.

5. Further to that, as this contravention code (12) covers different types of bays, it is essential that the suffixes and the additional explanatory wording issued with the contravention codes (in this case Suffix R -Residents bay) are used as motorists are entitled to know in which type of bay they were in when the contravention occurred.

This is confirmed at paragraph 6 of the guidance issued in the FAQ on Differential Parking Penalties issued on 15 May 2007 to the various London local authorities.

No suffix can be seen on the copy Penalty Charge notice, and this is another procedural impropriety.

I trust that first my response will be satisfying your request, and also make you aware of the procedural improprieties on the PCN in question

Hippocrates

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2024, 05:14:28 pm »
Well done for staying the course.
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899