Author Topic: PCN, asleep in the car  (Read 456 times)

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estevenin

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PCN, asleep in the car
« on: May 15, 2024, 11:32:09 am »
Hi all,

After a long night working, I started falling asleep whilst driving, so I stopped as soon as I could to take a nap.

I was parked in a resident permit street, without permit, so the ticket is issued correctly no doubt about that.

Nevertheless, I fell asleep and after a 20mn nap I wake up to a PCN in my windscreen. I know I wasn't parked where I should, but I was hoping that if this would happen, they would show some understanding and ask me to move. Needless to say that I feel really upset.

Is it legal to give someone a PCN when the person is in the car ? Can't post the evidence now just woke up to it.

In most pictures the reflect prevents seeing anything inside however in one picture we can see my legs resting.



Thanks for the advice.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2024, 11:38:20 am by estevenin »

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Incandescent

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2024, 12:22:57 pm »
It doesn't matter whether you are in the car or not.

Quote
I know I wasn't parked where I should, but I was hoping that if this would happen, they would show some understanding and ask me to move.
Understanding went out with traffic wardens who would probably have asked you to move on. They came under the police, so there was no money influence, unlike with councils who make shedloads of money out of PCN penalties.

John U.K.

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2024, 01:14:19 pm »
Incandescent has answered your direct question, however, please have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and post up both sides of the unredacted PCN and a GSV link to loacation and we can see if there is any error in the 'small print'.

cp8759

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2024, 12:08:28 am »
@estevenin as always please post up the paperwork and we'll see if we can sort something out.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

estevenin

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2024, 11:29:19 am »
Hi all,

Thank you for the feedback.

Sorry for not responding earlier, just got back to my laptop, I'm between moves and it's a bit of a chaos.

Seems to be the last day today for the reduced amount, I will appeal tonight probably asking for discretion (likely to fail but will at least make them work), couldn't find anything to say myself but here goes the PCN and evidence anyway (In the 4th pictures we see my legs, in some others, a bit of my hands) :



It doesn't matter whether you are in the car or not.

Quote
I know I wasn't parked where I should, but I was hoping that if this would happen, they would show some understanding and ask me to move.
Understanding went out with traffic wardens who would probably have asked you to move on. They came under the police, so there was no money influence, unlike with councils who make shedloads of money out of PCN penalties.

Have we lost our humanity here ? For all he knows, I could have fainted, or worst, I could be dead in the car. Imagine the cynism of the situation, where I am dead in the car, and the enforcement officer writing a PCN whilst rotting inside. The first thing I would do is knock on the window, if no answer I might call an ambulance or at the very least open the door to check that the person is alive in there.

Would that PCN be passed on to my heirs, or would it be cancelled since written after the death of the keeper ? Haven't seen that one on the list of grounds of appeal...

What we do for 35.

Incandescent

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2024, 11:59:28 am »
Even if you lose the case, you can still complain to the council about the CEO.

H C Andersen

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2024, 08:44:26 am »
Which of the CEO's photos best shows you asleep in the car and where were you?

silentbob

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2024, 09:47:00 am »
Which of the CEO's photos best shows you asleep in the car and where were you?

Image 6 you can clearly see a person in jeans lying back in the drivers seat.

Hippocrates

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2024, 12:05:08 pm »
I have e mailed estevenin (whose sartorial attire was not the same on the day of his mega case v Ealing in October 2022  ;D ) and have offered to do a draft on two technical issues re the PCN and discretion.
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

H C Andersen

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2024, 03:32:29 pm »
As I understand it, the OP has submitted reps.

OP, if so pl post a copy here. And who is the registered keeper - to whom the next notice would be sent if the PCN is neither cancelled nor the penalty paid? 


cp8759

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2024, 10:48:31 pm »
Have we lost our humanity here ? For all he knows, I could have fainted, or worst, I could be dead in the car. Imagine the cynism of the situation, where I am dead in the car, and the enforcement officer writing a PCN whilst rotting inside. The first thing I would do is knock on the window, if no answer I might call an ambulance or at the very least open the door to check that the person is alive in there.
@estevenin funny you say that:

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/14372157.traffic-warden-gives-lorry-parking-fine-after-driver-dies-at-the-wheel-in-halliwell-bolton/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23582311
https://web.archive.org/web/20170113035239/http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337129/Traffic-warden-slaps-dead-man-car-parking-ticket-Cambridge.html

By the letter of the law there is nothing to stop an authority enforcing a PCN against the deceased person's estate.

Anyway, I have requested the traffic order, in the meantime please can you show us a copy of what you've sent?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

cp8759

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2024, 12:04:09 am »
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

estevenin

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2024, 02:10:11 am »
Have we lost our humanity here ? For all he knows, I could have fainted, or worst, I could be dead in the car. Imagine the cynism of the situation, where I am dead in the car, and the enforcement officer writing a PCN whilst rotting inside. The first thing I would do is knock on the window, if no answer I might call an ambulance or at the very least open the door to check that the person is alive in there.
@estevenin funny you say that:

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/14372157.traffic-warden-gives-lorry-parking-fine-after-driver-dies-at-the-wheel-in-halliwell-bolton/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23582311
https://web.archive.org/web/20170113035239/http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1337129/Traffic-warden-slaps-dead-man-car-parking-ticket-Cambridge.html

By the letter of the law there is nothing to stop an authority enforcing a PCN against the deceased person's estate.

Anyway, I have requested the traffic order, in the meantime please can you show us a copy of what you've sent?

That comes at no surprise to me...

Even if you lose the case, you can still complain to the council about the CEO.

They might give him a medal

As I understand it, the OP has submitted reps.

OP, if so pl post a copy here. And who is the registered keeper - to whom the next notice would be sent if the PCN is neither cancelled nor the penalty paid?

I am. Copy of the challenge and response below

@estevenin here is a copy of The East Hertfordshire District Council (Control of Parking) (Consolidation) Order 2020.

Are you still with us?

Thank you for that, yes I am. Was waiting for their answer.

I'v checked the order, haven't seen anything out of the ordinary, just that part which could relate to my challenge :

Exemptions to the General Prohibition and Parking Places

7. The following Vehicles are exempt from the General Prohibition on Stopping and Waiting and
Restrictions on use of parking places as set out in Articles 4, 5 and 8 of this Order:

(c) a Vehicle which is:
(i) required by law to stop; or
(ii) obliged to stop so as to prevent accident injury or damage to persons or property; or
(iii) prevented from proceeding by circumstances outside his control;


But then again, would the photo of me in the car be sufficient evidence so as to satisfy "obliged to stop so as to prevent accident injury or damage to persons or property" ?

The challenge :

This is what I sent :

I wish to challenge this PCN as had suffered from Vertigo, some minutes before the PCN was issued.
Around 10.35AM I suffered Vertigo whilst driving, and felt as I was about to faint. For safety reasons I stopped as soon as possible, as I was afraid to cause an accident. I turned for about 3 mn and in that condition this is the safest place I could find, I wasn’t even in a condition to look at signs.

I stayed in the car and closed my eyes to rest for a few minutes, and as I opened them again about 20mn after at 11AM feeling ready to drive again, I found the PCN on my windscreen.

I have reviewed the evidence and understand I was parked without a valid permit, I apologize for not being able to review the signs before parking.

In this case I kindly ask for your discretion in cancelling that PCN, as I felt I had no other option but to stop as soon as possible. Evidence of zoom in from the warden pictures can show my legs and hands, as I am laying down inside the car waiting for the dizziness to pass.

I am concerned that the Parking Officer would not knock on the window to check if I was ok, or even call an ambulance if need be. I could have been passed out in there, or even worst, it could have been a dead person, all instead of receiving assistance, call an ambulance or at least check if the person inside is ok, there’d be instead a PCN being recorded.

It turns my stomack around writing those lines as I imagine the cynism of the situation, I wish the Enforcement Officer would simply have had more humanity in him this morning.

I hope the zoom-in evidence showing me inside the car will be sufficient to allow your discretion in that matter, I could phone up the doctor if need be in order to get a report, I’m not sure that’d help as it was a punctual trouble, but I can do it if you require. Can also provide evidence that I had driven away a few minutes after opening my eyes, as I felt the dizziness had passed, if required as well.


This is their answer :

Thank you for your correspondence in respect of the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

The Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued to you because your vehicle was observed parked in a residents' or shared use parking place without clearly displaying either a permit or a voucher or a pay and display ticket issued for that place.

I have investigated the circumstances within your correspondence, however at this point I do not have all the evidence that I need from you in order for me to make a decision on your representation. Therefore in order to consider your case, we require further information within 14 days from the date of this letter.

You explained that you had to stop because the driver of the vehicle was feeling unwell.

I am sorry to hear about the circumstances that you have described, regarding the driver of the vehicle feeling unwell.

In order for me to consider your case further, I require proof that an illness required you to park where you did.

I have carefully looked through everything you have submitted, but cannot find any items of evidence from you to support what you have stated in your correspondence. Without the required evidence I am not prepared to accept your representation.

As such, in order for me to consider your representation thoroughly, please could you send us a copy of the relevant medical report?

Please send your evidence by uploading it to www.hertsparking.co.uk/eastherts or by post to the PO Box address at the top of this letter.

I should be grateful if you would forward this information within the next 14 days, to prevent further correspondence on this matter and the possible escalation of the case.

Once I am in receipt of this information I will be pleased to consider the matter further

Thank you in anticipation of your prompt attention to this request.

Yours sincerely


That gives me 2 more weeks, before they reject it. They are asking for a medical report that "an illness required me to park immediately". I'm sure I could get a medical report by saying to my GP that I felt sleepy and was nearly passing out and had to stop, but there's no illness involved and this is a very punctual thing that might have happened only once before. I think they didn't write "illness" by mistake here, so not sure a medical report would even help.

If you think that it would be wise to get one anyway, then I can phone up the GP and try to get that. If not, then I just need to wait for the refusal.

Thank you
« Last Edit: July 03, 2024, 02:13:43 am by estevenin »

H C Andersen

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2024, 09:12:34 am »
IMO, your challenge might actually have nothing to do with the relevant issues in this case.

The restriction is part-time, commencing at 8am. So the first question IMO is when did you park?

If after 8am then it's down to your reasons for stopping.

But if before, then it's down to falling asleep and oversleeping!

The two could be related but IMO are different issues.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2024, 09:32:04 am by H C Andersen »

cp8759

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Re: PCN, asleep in the car
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2024, 10:06:34 pm »
Have you ever been diagnosed with vertigo? Or was this the first time it's happened?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order