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I can't think of anything it might have been that would have required OP to do a u-turn at a pedestrian crossing instead of going through a green light.

At adjudication the burden would be on the Council to convince the adjudicator that such a sign;

a) does exist
b) was there on a specific night last year
c) was there legitimately

I think they will struggle.

Quote from: Grant Urismo on June 10, 2025, 05:07:20 pm

I can't think of anything it might have been that would have required OP to do a u-turn at a pedestrian crossing instead of going through a green light.

At adjudication the burden would be on the Council to convince the adjudicator that such a sign;

a) does exist
b) was there on a specific night last year
c) was there legitimately

I think they will struggle.

This is helpful to note. Is there an appeal template letter you'd suggest using? I saw the thread below which seems to have been a similar issue. Would you suggest using the wording they used?

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/havering-council-no-evidence-of-pcn-contravention-shown-in-video-footage/

I've realised I didn't upload all the PCN, apologies. Also reading that thread it seems there's an issue with the PCN, does that apply to this one?


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Hi,

I’m in a situation with the same scenario. If anyone can help/advise I would be very grateful. I’ll try keep it brief. The first letter I received was to say I had not paid the penalty charge (same location, same offence code). New charge was now £195 up from £130. I called the number and was sent a link to view the evidence. Video and picture evidence showed nothing with regards the offence, just my van driving down the road. According to them I couldn’t appeal until a third letter was sent. When I received this I appealed stating I didn’t not receive the original letter and I haven’t been given notice on what the actual offence was. Having reading all these posts it seems the exact same. I had a judge witness my signature as it requests (what a joke and scam that is, scaring people to just pay up I suspect!). The problem was I made a mistake on the form. I entered my details as the driver, not the business which the van is registered to. They sent the form back. I then had to resend with the details of the business and not me. I then receive another letter saying I’m out of time and had to declare that. Well I wasn’t out of time replying, but I did make a mistake on the (very confusing) form. I sent the next form back (again had to be witnessed by a judge!) stating I hadn’t received the first letter and also had to sign the out of time form. They basically forced me to do this. Today I’ve now received a notice of enforcement and it’s now £280! No acknowledgement of my appeal, or the fact they never sent an initial fine letter, just the one saying it was unpaid! How is this even legal, it feels like a massive scam. Can someone please help? Thanks.

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Hi,

I’m in a situation with the same scenario. If anyone can help/advise I would be very grateful. I’ll try keep it brief. The first letter I received was to say I had not paid the penalty charge (same location, same offence code). New charge was now £195 up from £130. I called the number and was sent a link to view the evidence. Video and picture evidence showed nothing with regards the offence, just my van driving down the road. According to them I couldn’t appeal until a third letter was sent. When I received this I appealed stating I didn’t not receive the original letter and I haven’t been given notice on what the actual offence was. Having reading all these posts it seems the exact same. I had a judge witness my signature as it requests (what a joke and scam that is, scaring people to just pay up I suspect!). The problem was I made a mistake on the form. I entered my details as the driver, not the business which the van is registered to. They sent the form back. I then had to resend with the details of the business and not me. I then receive another letter saying I’m out of time and had to declare that. Well I wasn’t out of time replying, but I did make a mistake on the (very confusing) form. I sent the next form back (again had to be witnessed by a judge!) stating I hadn’t received the first letter and also had to sign the out of time form. They basically forced me to do this. Today I’ve now received a notice of enforcement and it’s now £280! No acknowledgement of my appeal, or the fact they never sent an initial fine letter, just the one saying it was unpaid! How is this even legal, it feels like a massive scam. Can someone please help? Thanks.

Start your own thread, please. Rule is one OP per thread. Of course you can keep looking at this one.

Also please read this before you start your thread:-
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

Quote from: Incandescent on June 18, 2025, 12:33:10 am

Quote from: Whyisitalwaysme on June 17, 2025, 10:56:36 pm

Hi,

I’m in a situation with the same scenario. If anyone can help/advise I would be very grateful. I’ll try keep it brief. The first letter I received was to say I had not paid the penalty charge (same location, same offence code). New charge was now £195 up from £130. I called the number and was sent a link to view the evidence. Video and picture evidence showed nothing with regards the offence, just my van driving down the road. According to them I couldn’t appeal until a third letter was sent. When I received this I appealed stating I didn’t not receive the original letter and I haven’t been given notice on what the actual offence was. Having reading all these posts it seems the exact same. I had a judge witness my signature as it requests (what a joke and scam that is, scaring people to just pay up I suspect!). The problem was I made a mistake on the form. I entered my details as the driver, not the business which the van is registered to. They sent the form back. I then had to resend with the details of the business and not me. I then receive another letter saying I’m out of time and had to declare that. Well I wasn’t out of time replying, but I did make a mistake on the (very confusing) form. I sent the next form back (again had to be witnessed by a judge!) stating I hadn’t received the first letter and also had to sign the out of time form. They basically forced me to do this. Today I’ve now received a notice of enforcement and it’s now £280! No acknowledgement of my appeal, or the fact they never sent an initial fine letter, just the one saying it was unpaid! How is this even legal, it feels like a massive scam. Can someone please help? Thanks.

Start your own thread, please. Rule is one OP per thread. Of course you can keep looking at this one.

Also please read this before you start your thread:-
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

Please can you provide some guidance on whether I should appeal using the wording above?

I'm a bit confused. Have I missed something really obvious? I thought we were meant to ask for advice/guidance in here and people might be able to help but it seems that no one is responding to my requests for help with this. Did I breach a forum rule or something?

Thank you for the reply, that's the bit I'm unclear on (what has been suggested). Is it that I should appeal? If so, I've found some wording and was trying to get guidance on whether that's what I should use. Can you please help/advise?

Look at your Post #33. There is an outline appeal there. Don't worry if they reject it, because Havering will not re-offer the discount, so then you'd be able to register an appeal at London Tribunals, and the matter will be looked at dispassionately there. The enormous problem with all councils responding to PCNs is that they keep the penalty money, so can never, ever, be unbiased.

Thank you for this. I've drafted something now, does this look ok?

Dear Havering Council,    

I make these formal representations against PCN:   

1. The PCN does not particularise what vehicles are restricted.
I have read the PCN, watched the video of the alleged contravention, looked through google maps and shown the video and letter to others, yet despite my best efforts, it is still not clear what the alleged offence was. Having reviewed the video, it is unclear what reason (or signage) that would have been present that would have required any reasonable driver to do a u-turn at a pedestrian crossing instead of going through a green light. I considered just paying the fine however as there is no adequate explanation of the alleged contravention, it would set a disturbing precedent and there is a likelihood that I could receive a future fine for a contravention I similarly know nothing about.    


2. There is no evidence of a sign allegedly passed or indeed any other signage such as a legend.   
The evidence provided so far has failed to show that there was a sign which gave direction against the driver’s actions. There is no evidence that such a sign;

a) does exist
b) was there on a specific night last year
c) was there legitimately

The evidence provided by the council in support of the PCN fails to demonstrate any of the above points.    

3. The PCN does not include the option to pay by post.   

Therefore, in light of the above, please cancel it.