3. Havering Council - 52M No evidence of PCN contravention shown in video footage
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ChestnutDriver

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Havering Council - 52M No evidence of PCN contravention shown in video footage
« on: July 19, 2024, 03:34:29 pm »
Hi

Havering Council
Contravention code: 52M

Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/2gti94Upp7ymq8Bz9

I have received a PCN from Havering Council alleging a, "failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle." However the evidence that has been attached doesn't show any contravention. i.e. no signage nor road markings.

On the face of it, the pics and vid show a vehicle being driven.

Having read others claims im struggling to see other examples of this.

What are other peoples 2 cents?

Thanks in advance

Video: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mxn9zna8btxwado78di8z/Media.mp4?rlkey=bm9kw489cox8j8h5h49fm7706&st=bfvgbczh&dl=0
« Last Edit: July 19, 2024, 03:39:39 pm by ChestnutDriver »
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Hippocrates

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Re: Havering Council - 52M No evidence of PCN contravention shown in video footage
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2024, 04:22:46 pm »
There is a wording issue with their PCNs so we need to see it please.
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How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

H C Andersen

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Re: Havering Council - 52M No evidence of PCN contravention shown in video footage
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2024, 08:25:43 pm »
OP, let's be clear..GSV shows more flying motorcycle signs in this area than you could shake a stick at. Not only is the road into which the vehicle turned no motor vehicles, so is the one from which it turned.


But maybe the PCN would reveal an 'out'?
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ChestnutDriver

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Re: Havering Council - 52M No evidence of PCN contravention shown in video footage
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2024, 11:37:08 am »
PCN attached @Hippocrates. Thank you

@H C Andersen - I agree. There are lots of signs in that area however my point is (which im looking feedback on) is:

1. Its unclear/ not definitive what part of that road that was contravened.
- Was it the bus lane? It doesn't show me in the bus lane.
- Was it the main road?  There is "Except for access" on (south street/ victoria road) on the main road to a car park across the road

2. The video evidence doesn't actually show any contravention. There are no road signs, nor road marking in the images/ video.

Including gdrive as uploading function doesnt seem to work.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1zP24Pi1Lmw0FeSxj6Rv724f0GFekB3Xu?usp=sharing


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Hippocrates

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Re: Havering Council - 52M No evidence of PCN contravention shown in video footage
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2024, 02:24:15 pm »
8221: adds wrong ground re traffic order being invalid: this belongs to parking legislation. Also, two lsts of grounds therefore do not tally.

Does not include postal payment option.

Signage allegedly passed?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2024, 02:27:24 pm by Hippocrates »
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How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

francisgran

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Re: Havering Council - 52M No evidence of PCN contravention shown in video footage
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2024, 05:48:07 pm »
I know Romford well and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you drove through the bus only rank? Your car can be seen turning out from this near to the bridge. Though I understand the lack of evidence in the Council video. It doesn't show you in the bus lane but can be seen turning out from it. 

see link below

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5741805,0.1836089,3a,60y,349.99h,90.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8uMxaIseDO_yHl8TeeXhXw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu
« Last Edit: July 20, 2024, 05:56:04 pm by francisgran »
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Hippocrates

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Re: Havering Council - 52M No evidence of PCN contravention shown in video footage
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2024, 07:28:16 pm »
Draft:

Dear Havering

I make these formal representations against PCN              :

1. The PCN does not particularise what vehicles are restricted.

2. The PCN contains two lists of grounds, one of which wrongly includes a ground re the traffic order being invalid which, itself, invalidates the PCN.

3. There is no evidence of a sign allegedly passed or indeed any other signage such as a legend.

4. The PCN does not include the option to pay by post.

Therefore, in light of the above, please cancel it.

Yours faithfully

Name

Address
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How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

ChestnutDriver

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Re: Havering Council - 52M No evidence of PCN contravention shown in video footage
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2024, 09:38:30 am »
Thank you @Hippocrates for the points and drafting!

I've submitted and will keep you posted.

@francisgran - Appreciate the input. I can understand your logic. My original point was that the evidence doesn't definitively show this. There could be other reasons to explain why it looks the way you mentioned from the angle.

However im a newbie and here to learn ha.

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Hippocrates

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Re: Havering Council - 52M No evidence of PCN contravention shown in video footage
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2024, 12:49:27 pm »
Sorry as I missed another wrong ground re vehicle being permitted to rest. I would stick that one in too.
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How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

Hippocrates

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Re: Havering Council - 52M No evidence of PCN contravention shown in video footage
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2024, 05:00:29 pm »
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How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

ChestnutDriver

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Re: Havering Council - 52M No evidence of PCN contravention shown in video footage
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2024, 12:11:10 pm »
UPDATE - Hi @Hippocrates

Whilst on holidays I’ve received a notice of rejection on the appeal. (Attached in the link below with the original)

Interestingly they have clarified and stated that the road sign contravened is, “ vehicle entered a road restricted to motor vehicles (except for access)” versus the other sign which is for buses only lane (runs parallel).

 I’ve attached a screenshot from apple maps in the link below.

Surely this would mean entering the pub car park and exiting for access would be fair to null and void the fine?

Many thanks in advance for the advice.


https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1zP24Pi1Lmw0FeSxj6Rv724f0GFekB3Xu
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Hippocrates

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Re: Havering Council - 52M No evidence of PCN contravention shown in video footage
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2024, 12:19:47 pm »
It is Tribunal time. I won a case a few days ago. Back later. Happy to represent you.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/17iJ5DUlgIK8w2hnj4GPadoaqvRq4CVcN/view

And there is one other, quite close to the Tribunal, as it were!
« Last Edit: September 07, 2024, 09:06:01 pm by Hippocrates »
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How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

Hippocrates

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Re: Havering Council - 52M No evidence of PCN contravention shown in video footage
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2024, 07:29:45 pm »
Appeal won. : 2240407139  ;D
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How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

cp8759

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Re: Havering Council - 52M No evidence of PCN contravention shown in video footage
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2024, 10:21:08 pm »
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order
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