Author Topic: HARROW - Charlton Rd - PCN s38L - width restriction lack of signage  (Read 368 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

nm1827

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Similar to another post here on this site. Was in a line of traffic and the width restriction came up suddenly.

My car is a Mercedes CLS AMG and I was not sure it would fit through.

There appeared to be absolutely no signage until at the restriction, and so I made a hasty decision to go through the middle (no signpost that cars are prohibited i.e. there wasn't any bus lane signage etc).

PCN is uploaded here: https://imgur.com/eXPA1bD

Advice please!

Share on Bluesky Share on Facebook


nm1827

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: HARROW - Charlton Rd - PCN s38L - width restriction lack of signage
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2024, 03:22:30 pm »
Also here is google maps image of the location: https://imgur.com/a/7wV86Bk

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2872
  • Karma: +33/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: HARROW - Charlton Rd - PCN s38L - width restriction lack of signage
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2024, 03:34:10 pm »
Whole PCN please.
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

nm1827

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: HARROW - Charlton Rd - PCN s38L - width restriction lack of signage
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2024, 05:04:23 pm »
https://pdfupload.io/docs/afc4dce0

Here it is. sorry for the delay, had to give birth to a baby. Suppose that won't be accepted as a mitigating circumstance would it

Grant Urismo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: HARROW - Charlton Rd - PCN s38L - width restriction lack of signage
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2024, 07:20:24 pm »
https://pdfupload.io/docs/afc4dce0

Here it is. sorry for the delay, had to give birth to a baby. Suppose that won't be accepted as a mitigating circumstance would it

Congratulations!

...but probably not (unless the baby is over 6ft 6 wide).

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2872
  • Karma: +33/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: HARROW - Charlton Rd - PCN s38L - width restriction lack of signage
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2024, 09:31:52 pm »
They have fixed the number of grounds wording.

Challenge
* Required fields are marked with an * asterisk
 
You should be aware that there are only a few mitigating circumstances that will be considered. For information on legal grounds for challenging your PCN, view the Environment and Traffic Appeals Service (E.T.A) website.

Are you the owner/registered keeper of the vehicle?*

Select
Select the type of contravention you have received? *

Select
Why do you want to challenge the PCN? (1000 character limit)*
Field is required

***************

If we reject your challenge, you must pay the full fee. We will send information about how you can appeal. Your case could be reassessed, either at a personal hearing or by post.

*******
Under the Traffic Management Act 2004, you should get a response within 56 days.


« Last Edit: July 31, 2024, 09:42:10 pm by Hippocrates »
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

nm1827

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: HARROW - Charlton Rd - PCN s38L - width restriction lack of signage
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2024, 10:42:00 am »
@Hippocrates any previous cases you know of where signage was deemed inadequate and so the argument can be made that no penalty charge is payable?

The signage at the width restriction was terrible. You turn a corner and there it is. If in a line of traffic there is little chance to turn back around.


Incandescent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3785
  • Karma: +83/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Crewe
    • View Profile
Re: HARROW - Charlton Rd - PCN s38L - width restriction lack of signage
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2024, 11:01:06 am »
@Hippocrates any previous cases you know of where signage was deemed inadequate and so the argument can be made that no penalty charge is payable?

The signage at the width restriction was terrible. You turn a corner and there it is. If in a line of traffic there is little chance to turn back around.
Any advance signs on the approach roads, in particular for drivers turning left ?

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2872
  • Karma: +33/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: HARROW - Charlton Rd - PCN s38L - width restriction lack of signage
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2024, 12:04:49 pm »
Had a look with no success I am afraid. Post up a draft for consideration please.
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

Bustagate

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re HARROW - Charlton Rd - PCN s38L - width restriction include lack of signage
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2025, 09:24:01 am »
I realise it's too late for this OP, but when I looked at Google Street View for Charlton Road I was surprised by the height of the offside post at the width restriction: it looks about 1.2-1.3m.

Width restrictions apply to the overall width of a vehicle (as defined by regulation 3 of The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986). That specifically excludes "driving mirrors".

As the offside post was of a height which meant that the offside driving mirror would be included in the width to which the restriction applied and the vehicle's overall width was just within the specified width, the OP could claim justification for going over the hatched area as a result of being misled by the advance notice as to what the width restriction was.

With regard to the adequacy of the signage: they've removed the No Entry sign which used to be on the bollard on the right of the hatching. That reinforced that you weren't meant to go over the hatching between the bollards and was present for some years after they removed the gate. Now they're relying solely on the tiny Keep Left arrow on the left bollard. Other local authorities which have width restrictions at the edges of the road with a white-hatched area between the bollards use full-size Keep Left signs on poles on the traffic island (often with a Traffic Enforcement Camera plate on the same pole): see 24, Barnsbury Street Islington.


Bustagate

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: HARROW - Charlton Rd - PCN s38L - width restriction lack of signage
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2025, 02:45:01 pm »
Harrow has made The Harrow (Prescribed Route) (Width Restriction) Traffic Order 2007 (as amended). Under this, the only vehicles allowed to pass northbound or southbound
Quote
between the two island sites situated between a point 1.50 metres north of a point opposite the party wall of Nos. 22 and 24 Charlton Road  and a point 1.50 metres south of a point opposite that party wall.
are
Quote
(a)  any vehicle being used for ambulance, fire brigade or police purposes;
(b)  anything done with the permission or at the direction of a police constable in uniform;
(c)  any person who causes any vehicle to proceed in accordance with any restriction or requirement indicated by traffic signs placed pursuant to section 66 or section 67 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984;
(d)  any vehicle specified in column 6 of the Schedule to this Order;
(e)  to any vehicle being lawfully used in connection with the maintenance of public services maintained by the London Borough of Harrow. [LBH2012/30]
Under Regulation 18 of the Local Authority’s Traffic Orders (Procedure)(England and Wales) Regulations 1996, a local authority which has made a traffic order shall secure: 
Quote
(a)  before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;
(b)  the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force; ...
Harrow met this requirement by placing a gate across that section of road. On each side of the gate there was a 600mm-diameter No Entry sign at its centre. In each direction, on the bollard to the right of the gate there was a small No Entry sign. Between October 2009 and October 2012 the gate was replaced with another gate which had red-and-white stripes across the top bar but which did not have a No Entry sign fixed to it. That gate was removed between March 2019 and November 2020. Between October 2022 and May 2024 the No Entry sign was removed from the bollards in each direction to the right of where the gate had been. That space on the bollards is now white.

It appears to me that Harrow has failed to maintain signage in accordance with its obligations. When the gate was removed, I would have expected Harrow to reinstate a 600mm-diameter "No Entry" sign in each direction to face oncoming traffic. That could have been on a pole on the traffic island to the right of the width restriction. As there would then be a pole on the traffic island, I would expect them also to install a 600mm-diameter Keep Left sign as well. For good measure, they could add a Traffic Enforcement Camera sign. Then motorists would be adequately informed of the restriction which is in place and of the consequences of violating it.

I realise that, given the width of her car and the height of the post at the right of the width restriction, the OP would probably have gone through the centre anyway. But I hope this post will help others caught by Harrow's inadequate signage of such gaps between traffic islands at width restrictions.

As Harrow formerly considered it requisite at this location to have a gate, a 600mm-diameter No Entry sign and a small No Entry sign on a bollard, they will have difficulty explaining why now none of those is required.

Bustagate

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: HARROW - Charlton Rd - PCN s38L - width restriction lack of signage
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2025, 06:10:38 pm »
May I present you with the perfect counter-example to Harrow's 38L contraventions on Charlton Road? The image below is from the width restriction on Headstone Lane. The difference here is that cycles and taxis, as well as buses, can use the central lane between the two traffic islands.

Harrow have signed this with Keep Left signs on the bollards on both traffic islands. So a vehicle passing through the central lane is passing to the right of the Keep Left sign on the left bollard.

By the logic of the PCNs issued for Charlton Road, anyone passing to the right of the Keep Left sign on the left bollard has committed a 38L contravention. While those who are not driving a taxi, bus or riding a cycle will also have committed a 33E, what possible reason can Harrow deploy to explain why they aren't issuing 38L's to the drivers of buses and taxis (cyclists would be a bit difficult)?

There is a solution, but Harrow haven't used it: a proper 600mm-diameter Keep Left sign with an "Except buses, cycles and taxis" plate below it on a pole on the left traffic island. They'd need authorisation from DfT, but they've needed that for other schemes, including putting up signs with a hedgehog.

Bustagate

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 22
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: HARROW - Charlton Rd - PCN s38L - width restriction lack of signage
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2025, 03:18:29 pm »
Keep Left/Right Signs on Bollards

I have now found a definitive statement from the Department for Transport that it is "never appropriate" to put Keep Left/Right signs on bollards where it is intended that some vehicles should pass on the "other" side. It is in Traffic Advisory Leaflet 3/13: Traffic bollards and low level
traffic signs
. On page 11 there is a section about "Cycle gaps". These are where there is a build-out and traffic in one direction is forced to give way to traffic coming in the other direction. In some cases the build-out is actually an island and the gap between the island and the footway is wide enough for cycles to pass through. This is a "cycle gap". TAL 3/13 advises:

Quote
Where a traffic island is used to create a cycle gap, it is never appropriate to use a keep left/right sign on the
island.

The keep right sign in Figure 15 essentially prohibits cyclists from using the cycle gap and a plain traffic bollard
would have been more appropriate

The reason that the Keep Right sign is inappropriate at the cycle gap is that the only vehicles (including pedal cycles) which may pass to its left are those listed in TSRGD 2016 Schedule 3 Part 4 Paragraph 3 (the emergency services plus some related ones). 

Figure 15 is at the bottom of this post.


Passing the Bollards on Charlton Road

The same argument applies to vehicles passing to the right of the Keep Left signs on Charlton Road. Bin lorries providing services to residents of Charlton Road are required to obey the sign. If they cannot, they must turn round or reverse back.

If Harrow Borough Council does not issue 38L PCNs to bin lorries and other vehicles which use the central lane, it breaks a fundamental rule of administrative law: that in its actions a public authority must not take account of irrelevant considerations. In issuing 38L PCNs, Harrow is using powers granted to it under Section 4 of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 in respect of contraventions of Section 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. There's nothing in RTA 1988 about TMOs which may permit other vehicles to use a lane to the right of a Keep Left sign. In any case, Harrow's TMO only permits its vehicles to use the central lane if they are being "lawfully used", which they aren't if they are disobeying a traffic sign.

The consequence of breaking this fundamental rule is that the public authority's actions are ultra vires (beyond its powers). The courts strike them down as unlawful. While it requires Judicial Review (which doesn't come cheap) to obtain such a declaration, Adjudicators should understand the principle and entertain the argument.


Wrong Signage

This argument only arises because Harrow has been using the wrong signage at the restrictions. To paraphrase the advice of Traffic Advisory Leaflet 3/13: it is never appropriate to use Keep Left/Right signs where it is intended that "special" vehicles should be permitted to pass the sign on the other side. The correct approach is to leave the bollard blank.

That doesn't mean that the TMO is unenforceable. On the contrary, Regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 (LATOR) imposes this duty:

Quote
18.(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—
          (a)  before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making  authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;
          (b)  the maintenance of such signs for so long as the order remains in force;

Google Street View shows that in 2008 there was a gate across the central lane with 600mm-diameter No Entry Signs and a plate which read "EMERGENCY ACCESS // DO NOT OBSTRUCT". It is permitted to have a gate across the highway, provided it is not locked. The obligation under Regulation 18 of LATOR refers only to traffic signs, so the locking of the gate didn't count. Harrow evidently considered that the "requisite" signage to make adequate information available to persons using the road was to put 600mm-diameter No Entry signs on the gate across the central lane. That also avoided complaints about its obstructing the highway by locking the gate.

By 2012, Harrow had replaced the gate with another one which didn't have the No Entry signs but which did have a red-and-white-striped top rail.


2012 Update to the TMO

The TMOs for Charlton Road have always allowed use of the central lane by the emergency services. In 2012 Harrow made Traffic Order LBH 2012/30 which added

    (e) any vehicle being lawfully used in connection with the maintenance of public services maintained by the London Borough of Harrow.

As noted above, this TMO only allows vehicles which are being "lawfully used" to use the central lane. If there is a Keep Left sign to the left of the lane, any vehicle using it (other than an emergency services vehicle) is not acting lawfully. If there isn't a Keep Left sign to its left, vehicles on Harrow business can use it. 


Removal of the Gate

When Harrow removed the gate between 2019 and 2020, the absence of proper signage of the restriction on the central lane became glaring. The proper signage would have been No Entry (or possibly No Vehicles) signs with "Except authorised vehicles" plates on poles on the traffic islands. The bollards on either side would then have been left blank.

The hatching which Harrow put across the central lane has a broken border and is to diagram 1040 (item 23 in TSRGD 2016 Schedule 11 Part 4). It means

Quote
     Part of the carriageway which vehicular traffic should not enter unless it is seen by the driver to be safe to do so

Rather than use the correct signage (which would have required special permission from the Department for Transport for the "Except authorised vehicles" plates), Harrow chose to use the wrong signage - Keep Left signs on the bollards at the traffic islands - and issue PCNs selectively.


Challenging Harrow's Actions

It will be interesting to see how Adjudicators respond to this argument, if it is deployed by someone who gets a 38L on Charlton Road.

As to those who have already paid, I see parallels between this and sub-postmasters who were bankrupted when the Post Office sued them for losses reported by the Horizon system. It took many years for those wrongs to be righted. I hope it doesn't take as long here.