Author Topic: Haringey, Code 12(r) Parked in a Residents Space, Shepherds Hill  (Read 244 times)

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Pothole_Percy

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Haringey, Code 12(r) Parked in a Residents Space, Shepherds Hill
« on: December 22, 2024, 03:13:10 am »
Hi everyone,

I'd like some advice regarding a PCN that was left on my car on Wednesday 18th December for parking in a resident's bay without a valid permit.

I thought I had a valid parking permit but I was obviously wrong. Back in July I opened the renewal email soon after it arrived late one night and tried to renew, but the system just would not accept my details. I gave up and planned to do it the next day, but completely forgot, thinking instead that I had already dealt with the permit.  I have since checked with my bank, but they have no record of any failed attempts at paying for the parking permit.

The email for the permit renewal arrived at 06:17 on Tuesday 2 July and the permit was due to expire on 5 August 2024. Before this time I had regularly renewed my parking permits every six months. This was to be my fourth permit from Haringey. Haringey only sends out one reminder by email, so if you miss that, and forget to renew your permit, you are destined to get a ticket when you next park in a residents parking bay. There are no other reminders sent out.  It's also not possible to auto renew a parking permit.

Where I live there is off-street parking, so I hardly ever need to use the permit. Last Sunday (15 December) I returned from a drive to my usual off-street parking place, where I found it being used by a neighbour. So, believing that I had a valid permit, I parked on the street.

Along with the PCN detailed here, there appears to have been at least one other PCN issued, but there was no sign of any others when I moved the car on Thursday morning (19 December). This is according to a neighbour who alerted me to the PCN stuck to the windscreen. The final picture taken by the CEO (below) shows two PCN plastic wallets attached to the windscreen. What I do not understand is why the CEO did not use the full adhesive backing to stick the wallet to the windscreen. On the wallet I have, all the adhesive protective backing is still intact. It looks like they stuck the wallet to the windscreen with the smallest amount of adhesive possible, so it's almost certain to be blown away. When I moved my car, a single PCN yellow wallet was tucked under the windscreen wiper on the drivers side.

Haringey does not provide any opportunity to locate a lost PCN. Their information states that if you lose a PCN, you must wait for the Notice to Owner, and there will be no option to pay at the discounted rate.

Here's summary of the above points:

  • I tried to renew my permit but the system would not accept my details and then I forgot to renew later.
  • I don't think it is fair to get issued with multiple PCNs for one parking violation.
  • I imagine that the missing PCN(s) were blown away due to the way they were affixed to the windscreen.
  • Haringey's process is not fair. It should be possible to get more than one reminder, locate lost PCNs and pay for permits automatically when they run out.
What's the best way to approach this now? Ideally I'd like to pay as little as possible, but I also feel so aggrieved at how Haringey treat their residents that I'm tempted to mentally write off the possible £390 charge and take this all the way!

Here is the Google Street View location:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ym825WctMHJj5b268

This is the PCN:





These are photographs taken by the CEO:

















This is the wallet with the backing still in place:





Please let me know if you need any more information.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2024, 03:18:26 am by Pothole_Percy »

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Incandescent

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Re: Haringey, Code 12(r) Parked in a Residents Space, Shepherds Hill
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2024, 10:34:51 am »
Presumably you left the car parked for about 3 days, maybe more, so there will be more than one PCN. You need to contact the council straightaway to find out how many PCNs are outstanding against your car registration. Once you know this, you can submit reps based on your narrative here, and ask that they cancel all bar one of those PCNs provided you pay the first one served. Point out you are a resident and regularly update your parking permit. It is important not to be confrontational, but do mention that you received the update email, and tried to pay, but their system would not accept your payment.

You will need to submit the same reps for each PCN, with all the PCN Numbers on the reps.

stamfordman

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Re: Haringey, Code 12(r) Parked in a Residents Space, Shepherds Hill
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2024, 01:59:37 pm »
There are no other associated PCNs on Haringey's site so you seem to have only one.

There are appeals allowed where a system fooled people that they thought they had renewed a permit but you just forgot so I don't think you have anything other than. plea for discretion. 

Pothole_Percy

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Re: Haringey, Code 12(r) Parked in a Residents Space, Shepherds Hill
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2024, 04:15:20 am »
Thanks for the suggestions and the advice.

I misunderstood how the Haringey parking ticket viewer worked. I now understand that other PCNs issued for my reg should also be listed there. As there aren't any, it does now appear that only one was issued.



I've written out my challenge statement below.  I would be grateful if you could let me know if anything should be changed, before I submit it.

Quote
I would like to plead for clemency regarding this PCN.

I have been a Haringey resident since February 2023 and have always renewed my parking permit in good time. The last permit renewal arrived at 06:17 on Tuesday 2 July. The permit was due to expire on 5 August 2024.  Quite soon after the renewal notice arrived I logged into the permit renewal portal in the early hours of the morning to renew the permit. I entered all my details, but as much as I tried, I could not get the site to complete the transaction. I believe I had reached a far as entering my credit card number.  I tried this multiple times and from a different browser but it just did not go though. I made a mental note to try again the next day, but unfortunately I completely forgot and then later falsely remembered that I had successfully completed the process.  I have since spoken to my bank to check if they have any record of a failed transactions around this time, but they were unable to find anything.
 
Since I have lived at my address, I have had access to off-street parking. Even though I mostly park there, I have always thought it prudent to pay for a resident's parking permit, just in case I needed to park my car in the street.

On Sunday 15th December, I returned from driving my car and found that a neighbour had parked in the place where I usually park, so I decided to park  on the street instead. I had thought that I had a valid parking permit. I would never have left my car parked in the resident's parking bay if I had knew that my car was not covered by a valid permit. This is the reason I did not move my car back to the off-street parking before Monday's parking restrictions became active.

On the morning of Thursday 19 December, whilst I was leaving for work, a neighbour told me of the problem with my car. I checked my car and after seeing I had been issued with a PCN, I immediately moved it back to the off-street parking.  The reason I did not notice the PCN on my car sooner is because my car was parked pointing away from my usual walking route to work.

I ask for clemency due to the problems renewing my parking permit. I did not intentionally leave my car parked in a resident's parking space without a valid resident's parking permit. I do understand that this issue is partially due to me forgetting to renew, but I would not have been in this position had the parking permit portal accepted my booking on the morning when I attempted to renew it.

Hope it's not to wordy. I'm trying to as honest as possible, and to give as much detail as I can.

mickR

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Re: Haringey, Code 12(r) Parked in a Residents Space, Shepherds Hill
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2024, 08:45:46 am »
observation time on PCN 14.27 to 14.41

but the first pic is time stamped 14.27 with PCN already attached so must have been issued before 14.27 observation

last pic at 14.42 showing 2 x PCN
this seems wrong.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2024, 08:47:30 am by mickR »

Pothole_Percy

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Re: Haringey, Code 12(r) Parked in a Residents Space, Shepherds Hill
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2024, 11:52:03 pm »
Just to be extra sure, today I wrote a quick letter to Haringey's Sheffield address, asking if there are any other PCNs outstanding against my car. It was probably a waste of time, but you never know. They can't say I've not tried! I sent my letter First Class and Signed For, so at least I'll know when it arrives.  It's such a shame they don't have phone number to call. That would have been so much quicker and easier.  I included an email address and phone number in the letter, so there is a small chance someone might call or email me with the details, before the discount cut-off date runs out. Fingers crossed!

Pothole_Percy

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Re: Haringey, Code 12(r) Parked in a Residents Space, Shepherds Hill
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2024, 12:04:37 am »
observation time on PCN 14.27 to 14.41

but the first pic is time stamped 14.27 with PCN already attached so must have been issued before 14.27 observation

last pic at 14.42 showing 2 x PCN
this seems wrong.
My thinking here is that there was already a PCN attached to the windscreen when the CEO observed the car. This then blew away as soon as the wind kicked up, leaving the latest PCN attached by a sliver of adhesive. I think that might have also nearly been blown away but some kind passer by probably grabbed it and placed it under the windscreen wiper, which is the only reason I have it now. knowing how this works, if I ever see a PCN flying by, I'll grab it and make every effort to re-unite it with the car it came from.

stamfordman

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Re: Haringey, Code 12(r) Parked in a Residents Space, Shepherds Hill
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2024, 11:59:33 am »
I sent you a PM saying don't worry about a missing PCN as you can deal with it at NTO stage provided your logbook address is correct.

Pothole_Percy

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Re: Haringey, Code 12(r) Parked in a Residents Space, Shepherds Hill
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2024, 10:50:14 pm »
I sent you a PM saying don't worry about a missing PCN as you can deal with it at NTO stage provided your logbook address is correct.
Thanks for the IM. I appreciate the help.

My letter enquiring about any other PCNs recently issued for my car was delivered at 06:43 this morning to Haringey Council's Sheffield office.  I've not had a response from them yet. I included my email address, postal address and phone number.

I also submitted my representation this evening for the PCN that I know about. The system confirmed it had been received with an automatic email.

I'll post an update here as soon as a I get a response.

cp8759

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Re: Haringey, Code 12(r) Parked in a Residents Space, Shepherds Hill
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2024, 11:16:23 pm »
@Pothole_Percy I hope you have not challenged the PCN yet? Unfortunately nothing in your initial draft is a statutory ground of appeal, so we need to find something better.

A key issue seems to be whether there was "the necessary degree of adhesion or attachment between the PCN and the vehicle to amount to fixing it to the vehicle", see Gbenga Ogunyemi v London Borough of Barnet (2190288340, 17 August 2019).

Do you have any screenshots of when you first attempted to renew your permit?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Pothole_Percy

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Re: Haringey, Code 12(r) Parked in a Residents Space, Shepherds Hill
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2024, 12:09:56 am »
@cp8759  Sorry, I submitted the challenge for the PCN that was stuck to my car, I did this on the Haringey parking site after entering the PCN and my reg details. The cut off date for the reduced charged was 31st December. As no one had commented on my text, I thought it was alright to submit.

I don't have any screen shots of attempting to pay for the permit. I just remember what happened. When I looked back at my emails for that date, all were unread, except for the email reminding me to renew. That brought back the memory of my struggle with their renewal system.

If there are any other PCNs issued, they will have blown away. So your point about, "the necessary degree of adhesion", would be appropriate for them.

cp8759

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Re: Haringey, Code 12(r) Parked in a Residents Space, Shepherds Hill
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2024, 12:21:29 am »
Well let us know when you get an answer, don't be surprised if they reject and don't let that discourage you.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Pothole_Percy

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Re: Haringey, Code 12(r) Parked in a Residents Space, Shepherds Hill
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2025, 11:41:36 pm »
As expected, my challenge to the PCN failed. I have now been given a further 14 days to pay the discount charge of £65. This expires on 22 January 2025.

According to the letter below, there is another PCN associated with my car, and that will soon be posted to the registered keepers address. I'm hoping that will arrive before the 14 days is up.

Here's the letter I received:





I'll report back as soon as the other PCN arrives in the post.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2025, 11:43:45 pm by Pothole_Percy »

Pothole_Percy

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Re: Haringey, Code 12(r) Parked in a Residents Space, Shepherds Hill
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2025, 03:11:49 am »
Hello again,

A Notice to Owner finally arrived on Saturday for the PCN that was blown away by the wind:










I've checked on the Haringey parking web portal and now conveniently both PCNs are linked together:




Here are the pictures from the newly revealed PCN:












I have until 22 January 2025 to decide what to do about the PCN that was still suck to my car. That one is still at the discounted rate of £65.

For the PCN that was blown away, I need to send in representations by 13 February 2025.  This is one is now at £130.

I feel I should fight the PCN that was blown away, but probably pay the other one before the cut off date, because I can't think of a good reason not to.

Any suggestions about what I should do?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2025, 03:15:08 am by Pothole_Percy »

Incandescent

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Re: Haringey, Code 12(r) Parked in a Residents Space, Shepherds Hill
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2025, 10:08:21 am »
Quote
I feel I should fight the PCN that was blown away, but probably pay the other one before the cut off date, because I can't think of a good reason not to.
No point in paying until you've had reps rejected, and they may re-offer the discount when rejecting. Don't be confrontational; what you are after is to get the discount re-offered so make the point about the PCN not being on the vehicle, (blown away in the wind or something). The little neds seem to enjoy taking them off too.

If they don't reoffer the discount it's a no brainer to take them to London Tribunals using the narrative in your first post as your basis. Councils need to recognise their permit systems are not perfect.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2025, 10:10:46 am by Incandescent »