Author Topic: Hammersmith and Fulham - Being in a bus lane, Shepherds Bush Rd Southbound Offside Bus Lane  (Read 705 times)

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tyronejiggles

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Anyone know whether this is possible to challenge? This bus lane is apparently notorious for being confusing. Have read about people challenging on grounds of inadequate signage. Any opinions/experience with this particular bus lane?

Link to article in regards to this specific bus lane: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/the-shepherds-bush-bus-lane-which-raked-in-ps1m-with-confusing-signs-8498962.html

What someone told me on r/legaladviceuk, not sure if this is a valid challenge:

"You might have a point. Accoring to here (https://penaltychargenotice.co.uk/bus-lanes/signs-and-lines-bus-lane/bus-lane-signs/) the sign warning of the bus lane should be 30m before the start of the lead in taper to the bus lane, where as you can see on google maps, the blue sign (diagram 958) is about 10m into the start of it. They don't seem to have moved the signage since that article.

Advance indication of a with‑flow bus lane is provided by the sign to diagram 958 (S11‑2‑37, see Figure 9-2) varied as appropriate. Where the speed limit is 20 mph or 30 mph, the sign should be sited 30 m in advance of the lead‑in taper formed by the road marking to diagram 1010
Section 9.3.4 of Traffic Signs Manual – Chapter 3
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c78f895e5274a0ebfec719b/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf


Street view of bus lane: https://maps.app.goo.gl/6MreLK93xoq8KvgK7

PCN Notice:
« Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 11:10:06 pm by cp8759 »

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Incandescent

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Try searching the London Tribunals Statutory Register for the last 2 years using the location on the PCN
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals

Hippocrates

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Welcome.

1.  I know the guy in the article rather well.  ;)  ;)  ;)

2.  The advice re with flow is irrelevant as there is special DFT authorisation for this bus lane, and they have departed from the agreed plan.

3.  I will draft an informal challenge and am prepared to go the full distance with you on this one.

4.  I will PM you so I can send all the plans via e mail.

5.  Please show all the PCN.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2024, 09:01:47 pm by Hippocrates »
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

cp8759

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@tyronejiggles follow the advice from Hippocrates and you really can't go wrong with this one.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hippocrates

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E mail sent.

So:

Dear Hammersmith and Fulham

Re PCN: HZ81783446

I challenge the PCN on the following grounds:

1.  I am in possession of the special DFT authorisation for this offside bus lane and it is clear that you have departed from the agreed plan of the layout of the signage, in particular the 958 sign.

2.  Notwithstanding that there is the said authorisation, I refer you to this extract from a High Court decision:

R(Oxfordshire County Council) v The Bus Lane Adjudicator [2010]EWHC 894 (Admin) Mr Justice Beatson confirmed that,

Para 65.  The Defendant's submission that the fact that signs are prescribed or authorised does not mean they are sufficient for securing adequate information as to the effect of an order is made available to road users is clearly correct. If the signs do not in fact provide adequate information no offence is committed;


I argue, therefore, that your departure from the DFT authorised plan by placing the 958 sign AFTER the taper line substantially exacerbates your problem concerning enforcement.

3.  There is no End of Bus Lane sign visible pertaining to the previous with flow bus lane.

4.  The grounds on the PCN are incomplete.

In light of the above, which clearly expresses this total confusion of signage, I request that you cancel the PCN forthwith.

Name

Registered keeper

Address

************

I added no 4 to play Devil's Advocate.  E mail me and I will explain.  It's  a trap basically to test their response.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2024, 10:04:06 pm by Hippocrates »
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

Hippocrates

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Ref. PCN                          VRM                 

I make these formal representations against the Enforcement Notice as follows;

1. I require you to consider my informal challenge as formal representations.
2. I put you to strict proof that the camera at the said location has the correct VCA approval.
3. The Enforcement  Notice limits to one ground of representations.
4. Service and delivery are two entirely different concepts and “delivery” is not mentioned in the Act. The Enforcement Notice substantially departs from the statutory scheme in terms of 3 and 4.

In light of the above, I request cancellation of the PCN and EN
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

Hippocrates

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Hippocrates

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;D Decision tomorrow.  They did not attend. We had a full discussion re the paperwork, signage, missing EN, DfT authorisation etc. The next one will  not be so easy if they learn. And I have written to the DfT.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2024, 08:47:32 pm by Hippocrates »
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

tyronejiggles

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Thank you Hippocrates, you’re an absolute legend!!

Hippocrates

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Thank you Hippocrates, you’re an absolute legend!!
Still living thanks!  Internet is back on. What a palaver having to turn up at Furnival Street to poach their internet 5 hours before the hearing!  You did well, too,  for staying the course. Leffervescence rules OK.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2024, 09:45:11 pm by Hippocrates »
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

cp8759

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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hippocrates

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FYI: Re WS and approval statements I referred to 2230145433 and 2240293663. Re signage: 2240270679 which is spot on.

I have also written to the DfT.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2024, 08:36:13 pm by Hippocrates »
How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

URGENT!

PLEASE SIGN MY PETITION TO EQUATE MOVING TRAFFIC LAW WITH BUS LANE LAW SO LONDON COUNCILS MUST ATTEND HEARINGS WHEN REQUIRED BY THE APPELLANT. 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/701491

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/petition-to-align-the-llaa-2003-to-the-llaa-1996-(right-to-x-council-witnesses)/msg56899/#msg56899

wtstone

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Hi,

I've just had a ticket for the exact same spot. There was actually a van parked on double yellows right by the sign so I didn't think i was in the bus lane as i was avoiding the van.

Should i raise an appeal and reference this case?

Any help appreciated!


John U.K.

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Hi,

I've just had a ticket for the exact same spot. There was actually a van parked on double yellows right by the sign so I didn't think i was in the bus lane as i was avoiding the van.

Should i raise an appeal and reference this case?

Any help appreciated!


Please to start your own topic. By all means reference this thread there with a link.
Please begin with a brief account of the circumstances, and post ing all sides of the PCN (redact only yr name & address) with a GSV link to the location.

For guidance see
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/