3. Hammersmith and Fulham - Being in a bus lane, Shepherds Bush Rd Southbound Offside Bus Lane
« previous next »
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Hammersmith and Fulham - Being in a bus lane, Shepherds Bush Rd Southbound Offside Bus Lane  (Read 265 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

tyronejiggles

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Hammersmith and Fulham - Being in a bus lane, Shepherds Bush Rd Southbound Offside Bus Lane
« on: April 27, 2024, 06:28:58 pm »
Anyone know whether this is possible to challenge? This bus lane is apparently notorious for being confusing. Have read about people challenging on grounds of inadequate signage. Any opinions/experience with this particular bus lane?

Link to article in regards to this specific bus lane: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/the-shepherds-bush-bus-lane-which-raked-in-ps1m-with-confusing-signs-8498962.html

What someone told me on r/legaladviceuk, not sure if this is a valid challenge:

"You might have a point. Accoring to here (https://penaltychargenotice.co.uk/bus-lanes/signs-and-lines-bus-lane/bus-lane-signs/) the sign warning of the bus lane should be 30m before the start of the lead in taper to the bus lane, where as you can see on google maps, the blue sign (diagram 958) is about 10m into the start of it. They don't seem to have moved the signage since that article.

Advance indication of a with‑flow bus lane is provided by the sign to diagram 958 (S11‑2‑37, see Figure 9-2) varied as appropriate. Where the speed limit is 20 mph or 30 mph, the sign should be sited 30 m in advance of the lead‑in taper formed by the road marking to diagram 1010
Section 9.3.4 of Traffic Signs Manual – Chapter 3
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c78f895e5274a0ebfec719b/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf


Street view of bus lane: https://maps.app.goo.gl/6MreLK93xoq8KvgK7

PCN Notice:
« Last Edit: May 01, 2024, 11:10:06 pm by cp8759 »
Logged

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter

Incandescent

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2301
  • Karma: +55/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Crewe
    • View Profile
Re: Hammersmith and Fulham - Being in a bus lane, Shepherds Bush Rd Southbound Offside Bus Lane
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2024, 08:00:56 pm »
Try searching the London Tribunals Statutory Register for the last 2 years using the location on the PCN
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals
Logged

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1637
  • Karma: +17/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Hammersmith and Fulham - Being in a bus lane, Shepherds Bush Rd Southbound Offside Bus Lane
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2024, 08:54:30 pm »
Welcome.

1.  I know the guy in the article rather well.  ;)  ;)  ;)

2.  The advice re with flow is irrelevant as there is special DFT authorisation for this bus lane, and they have departed from the agreed plan.

3.  I will draft an informal challenge and am prepared to go the full distance with you on this one.

4.  I will PM you so I can send all the plans via e mail.

5.  Please show all the PCN.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2024, 09:01:47 pm by Hippocrates »
Logged
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5055
  • Karma: +121/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Hammersmith and Fulham - Being in a bus lane, Shepherds Bush Rd Southbound Offside Bus Lane
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2024, 12:17:42 am »
@tyronejiggles follow the advice from Hippocrates and you really can't go wrong with this one.
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1637
  • Karma: +17/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Hammersmith and Fulham - Being in a bus lane, Shepherds Bush Rd Southbound Offside Bus Lane
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2024, 08:27:12 pm »
E mail sent.

So:

Dear Hammersmith and Fulham

Re PCN: HZ81783446

I challenge the PCN on the following grounds:

1.  I am in possession of the special DFT authorisation for this offside bus lane and it is clear that you have departed from the agreed plan of the layout of the signage, in particular the 958 sign.

2.  Notwithstanding that there is the said authorisation, I refer you to this extract from a High Court decision:

R(Oxfordshire County Council) v The Bus Lane Adjudicator [2010]EWHC 894 (Admin) Mr Justice Beatson confirmed that,

Para 65.  The Defendant's submission that the fact that signs are prescribed or authorised does not mean they are sufficient for securing adequate information as to the effect of an order is made available to road users is clearly correct. If the signs do not in fact provide adequate information no offence is committed;

I argue, therefore, that your departure from the DFT authorised plan by placing the 958 sign AFTER the taper line substantially exacerbates your problem concerning enforcement.

3.  There is no End of Bus Lane sign visible pertaining to the previous with flow bus lane.

4.  The grounds on the PCN are incomplete.

In light of the above, which clearly expresses this total confusion of signage, I request that you cancel the PCN forthwith.

Name

Registered keeper

Address

************

I added no 4 to play Devil's Advocate.  E mail me and I will explain.  It's  a trap basically to test their response.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2024, 10:04:06 pm by Hippocrates »
Logged
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1637
  • Karma: +17/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Hammersmith and Fulham - Being in a bus lane, Shepherds Bush Rd Southbound Offside Bus Lane
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2024, 08:58:54 pm »
Ref. PCN                          VRM                 

I make these formal representations against the Enforcement Notice as follows;

1. I require you to consider my informal challenge as formal representations.
2. I put you to strict proof that the camera at the said location has the correct VCA approval.
3. The Enforcement  Notice limits to one ground of representations.
4. Service and delivery are two entirely different concepts and “delivery” is not mentioned in the Act. The Enforcement Notice substantially departs from the statutory scheme in terms of 3 and 4.

In light of the above, I request cancellation of the PCN and EN
Logged
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1637
  • Karma: +17/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Hammersmith and Fulham - Being in a bus lane, Shepherds Bush Rd Southbound Offside Bus Lane
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2024, 02:19:41 pm »
Logged
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1637
  • Karma: +17/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Hammersmith and Fulham - Being in a bus lane, Shepherds Bush Rd Southbound Offside Bus Lane
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2024, 08:05:10 pm »
;D Decision tomorrow.  They did not attend. We had a full discussion re the paperwork, signage, missing EN, DfT authorisation etc. The next one will  not be so easy if they learn. And I have written to the DfT.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2024, 08:47:32 pm by Hippocrates »
Logged
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

tyronejiggles

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Hammersmith and Fulham - Being in a bus lane, Shepherds Bush Rd Southbound Offside Bus Lane
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2024, 08:06:07 pm »
Thank you Hippocrates, you’re an absolute legend!!
Logged

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1637
  • Karma: +17/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Hammersmith and Fulham - Being in a bus lane, Shepherds Bush Rd Southbound Offside Bus Lane
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2024, 08:14:38 pm »
Quote from: tyronejiggles on August 20, 2024, 08:06:07 pm
Thank you Hippocrates, you’re an absolute legend!!
Still living thanks!  Internet is back on. What a palaver having to turn up at Furnival Street to poach their internet 5 hours before the hearing!  You did well, too,  for staying the course. Leffervescence rules OK.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2024, 09:45:11 pm by Hippocrates »
Logged
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5055
  • Karma: +121/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Hammersmith and Fulham - Being in a bus lane, Shepherds Bush Rd Southbound Offside Bus Lane
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2024, 05:25:42 pm »
Logged
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Hippocrates

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1637
  • Karma: +17/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: The Cosmos.
    • View Profile
Re: Hammersmith and Fulham - Being in a bus lane, Shepherds Bush Rd Southbound Offside Bus Lane
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2024, 08:03:13 pm »
FYI: Re WS and approval statements I referred to 2230145433 and 2240293663. Re signage: 2240270679 which is spot on.

I have also written to the DfT.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2024, 08:36:13 pm by Hippocrates »
Logged
There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know through no fault of their own.

"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι εἰ
Pages: [1]
« previous next »
  3. Hammersmith and Fulham - Being in a bus lane, Shepherds Bush Rd Southbound Offside Bus Lane