Author Topic: Greenwich - Crooms Hill / Nevada St - 52m failing to comply with prohibition - two small-ish signs at side of road  (Read 2193 times)

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Recently received a PCN from Greenwich Council and would appreciate any advice on whether I can appeal it and what possible grounds might be, or whether I should just bite the bullet and pay up.


I drove South up Crooms Hill, into and through a stretch of road which now has restrictions on times/days that cars can drive through it. I have been driving up this road for literally decades and I’m pretty sure that these signs have been put there relatively recently. It simply wasn’t in my mind that this road would have restrictions, and the signs indicating the restrictions weren’t exactly massive and screaming “don’t drive down here, there are vehicle restrictions!” … by the time I had noticed them there wasn’t really time to read the details.

(Although now that I look at the images ... the signs seem larger in the images than I remember them!)


Received PCN from Greenwich Council a few days ago, dated 3rd March.


A quick look on Google Street View suggests that the restrictions weren’t there in October 2024, and I think I would have driven through that street at Christmas but possibly not during restricted hours.


I’m wondering whether this is something I could appeal against on the basis that the signs are new and I was not aware of the restrictions, or that they aren’t visible enough … or perhaps there might be other grounds? If anyone could suggest any possibilities I would be more than grateful.


Location on google maps: https://maps.app.goo.gl/dKL37Y27XKSrziVr9

Street view: https://maps.app.goo.gl/MthQMALfUVhy7WAP7


PCN images ... I have omitted the fourth page which is "intentionally blank":








Images from the council:






And the video:
https://vectoreyes.github.io/ftla/GR23113012/EvidenceVideo.mov
« Last Edit: March 12, 2025, 11:03:55 pm by FightTheGoodFight »

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Signs like these, the notorious "Flying Motorbike" signs are in place now all over London. The sign has been in the signs lexicon for decades, and as a motorist you are supposed to know what they mean. In addition to that, you approached the signs head on so saying you didn't see them is a non-starter.

However, there seems to have been something "going on" here, because the road was closed to motor vehicles in September 2020 : -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/1EiBkowQcKLR7ePdA
but GSV October 2022 shows the signs gone, planters that now hold the signs you passed in position, but the road is open with no restrictions.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/LTAsmmRiv6maP8Ks7
The latest GSV view is dated October 2024 and no signs are there, so this looks like a quite late imposition. For such a recent restriction, I would have thought the council would have put up advance warnings of the restriction, such as when one turns in from the A206, but as there is no more recent GSV view we cannot tell unless you do some legwork.

So I suggest you submit representations based on your narrative, pointing out you have used this road for decades, and would have expected some form of advance warning of the restriction before you get to the signs. They will re-offer the discount if/when they reject them.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2025, 09:51:51 am by Incandescent »


So maybe add into your reps something about the difficulties the scheme has caused with controversy in meetings of the council, but don't be confrontational. Post a draft here before submitting.

So maybe add into your reps something about the difficulties the scheme has caused with controversy in meetings of the council, but don't be confrontational. Post a draft here before submitting.

I have also receive the same PCN, have you managed to compose a response?

So maybe add into your reps something about the difficulties the scheme has caused with controversy in meetings of the council, but don't be confrontational. Post a draft here before submitting.

I have also receive the same PCN, have you managed to compose a response?

Hoping to finalise first draft and post today. I did some research, drove back to look at the signs, and it looks like the two additional warning signs on the A206 are partially broken (in one direction) and completely turned around to face the wrong way (in the other direction). Will try to update tonight!

I have a draft appeal ready ... I must admit I am struggling to word some of it, and I'm *really* struggling with having to write it all with HTML tags! I'm unsure whether to bother with point (3) or not ... I do recall that I was having to navigate in and out of the space between parked vehicles to drive up that road, so I had reduced capacity to focus on restriction signs, but I'm not sure whether that's an effective argument. If anyone has comments on the appeal draft I would love to hear them. Thankyou!





I write to appeal against penalty notice GR23113012 on the following grounds:



1. Familiarity with old system (no restrictions). I have been driving in Greenwich for decades but this was the first time I had driven through this road since the new restrictions were put in place. I had no idea the road was restricted and there were no advance warnings.


2. There are  acknowledged problems with the implementation of the new restricted zones in Greenwich, of which this zone is one example.


3. Nature of traffic and parked vehicles in Stockwell Street and Crooms Hill make it more likely that signs will be missed or there will not be time to read and understand the timings.


4. Additional warning signs on A206 are damaged, offering reduced or no visibility, therefore they do not provide advanced warning of the restrictions.





1. Familiarity with this road as an unrestricted road.


I have been driving around Greenwich for over four decades. I grew up in Charlton and visited Greenwich regularly. I fondly recall driving up the now-pedestrianised road through Greenwich Park, and once this was closed to vehicle traffic my famiily and myself swapped to using Crooms Hill. It was therefore part of my “mental map” of the area that Crooms Hill was “the” way to drive between Greenwich and Blackheath, and I had no expectation that this road might have traffic restrictions. I fully accept that this fact in and of itself does not provide an excuse for having missed the signs, but, given that the restrictions were put in place within the last 2-3 months, I would be grateful if you could take this into consideration when considering mitigating circumstances.



2. Known and acknowledged problems with the implementation of these restrictions.


There are documented issues with the implementation of the new restrictions. According to the following link…


https://www.royalgreenwich.gov.uk/news/2024/west-and-east-greenwich-traffic-management-scheme-update-were-making-changes-based-your


… it is clear that this is a trial scheme and there have already been issues raised regarding confusing signage, leading to an extended grace period up to 2nd January while new signs are put in place and additional ones installed. However, as I will explain in point (4), these additional signs are damged and do not function to alert drivers to the upcoming restrictions.


As additional evidence for this point I offer the following link to an article from the Greenwich Wire:


https://greenwichwire.co.uk/2025/01/31/greenwich-ltn-more-signs-council-learning-lessons/


To quote some of this article:



“Greenwich Council’s deputy leader Averil Lekau admitted that the launch of the LTN, which began at the end of November but has only been enforced since January 2, had not been smooth and said the town hall was still “learning lessons”.



“There has been an increase in traffic in some roads in Charlton, while enforcement was delayed because of problems with the signage, which remains minimal, with little advance warning of the restrictions. “ [My emphasis]



“Some advance warning signs were put up before Christmas but were quickly taken down again. Lekau said that signs were being reviewed to ensure they were clear.”



“Lekau replied: “I believe we’re learning lessons and I believe as we learn those lessons, we will continue to address them.” She did not give a date for when the new signs would be installed.”





3. Signs are easy to miss owing to nature of traffic and parked vehicles in Stockwell Street.



The signs on either side of the road are raised up on poles and if one is more focussed on the road ahead, one might have only a short period of time in which to take them in and — crucially — to read and parse the timing restrictions. My memory of this drive was that I had to navigate between both parked and moving cars and coaches as I was driving up Stockwell St towards Crooms Hill. (Please see Image1_StockwellSt.jpeg as an example of the drive up Stockwell St.) As I got up to the location near to the signs, I was in addition looking ahead to judge whether I could drive into Crooms Hill itself. At the point the restictions begin, the road narrows through a pair of planters, and one has to be careful of vehicles coming towards you on ‘your’ side of the road. (Please see Image2_NarrowCroomsHill.jpeg.) All of these circumstances contribute to the signs being effectively less visible than static photographs suggest. (Having reviewed the video evidence, I would note that it does not show what happened just previously, specifically that a car had approached me coming down Crooms Hill and I had to slow down somewhat and judge my speed such that I could let it pass me on Stockwell Street before driving between the planters into Crooms Hill. Again, this focus on oncoming cars mitigates against having time to read, parse and understand the signs).



As you can see from Image3_ExtraWarning.jpeg, this is clearly enough of a problem that someone has taken it into their own hands to print an additional sign on the left-hand planter, warning drivers of the restrictions. This would strongly suggest that the two signs by themselves provide insufficient warning of the restrictions.




4. Additional warning signs on A206 are damaged and do not provide adequate warning in one direction and no warning in the other.



Given the three points above, it would seem reasonable to provide additional early warning signs, further away from the point at which restrictions begin. I do not recall seeing these signs during the journey in question.



I therefore drove back to the area in question on 14th March to double-check and was able to establish the following:



- Coming from the SW, as you drive along the A206 before turning right into Stockwell Street, the warning sign is partially damaged and the bottom half is semi-rotated, making it more difficult to see. (Image4_A206TowardsTurningFromWest_SignPartiallyTurned.jpeg)

- Coming from the NE, as you drive along the A206 before turning left into Stockwell Street, the warning sign is completely rotated and not visible. (Image5_A206TowardsTurningFromEast_SignTurnedRound.jpeg and Image6_A206TowardsGreenwich_SignTurnedRound.jpeg)



It is clear that as of 14th March, drivers coming from either direction along the A206 would not be able to see these signs and would therefore have no advance warning of the restrictions. It is reasonable to assume that this was also the case on the date of my journey. I therefore suffered by not receiving a fair warning that the restrictions were in place.




Conclusion



Taken overall, I believe that the following points all indicate that I did not receive fair warning of the restrictions:



- The scheme is recent, is a trial scheme, and is still receiving feedback.

- There are known problems with the scheme, with have been acknowledged by Greenwich Council. The scheme is controversial and it has been admitted that The Council “is learning lessons”.

- The scheme suffered from various problems with advanced warning signs.

- The two advance warning signs on the A206 are damanged (as of 14th March), one of them so badly that no driver would receive an advance warning.



These points, along with my expectation that the road was drivable with no restrictions — based on decades of driving up the road while there were no restrictions — meant that I did not receive fair and sufficient warning of the restrictions. I therefore request that this penalty notice be cancelled.





Images:

Image1_StockwellSt.jpeg



Image2_NarrowCroomsHill.jpeg



Image3_ExtraWarning.jpeg



Image4_A206TowardsTurningFromWest_SignPartiallyTurned.jpeg



Image5_A206TowardsTurningFromEast_SignTurnedRound.jpeg



Image6_A206TowardsGreenwich_SignTurnedRound.jpeg




I know this restriction well. It is basically a scaled down version of previous LTN in Greenwich implemented and dropped in 2022.

The prohibition has been live since November. Enforcement delayed until January. 

If OP is from Charlton, then there has been a LOT of chatter about this on social media. Especially as Charlton residents are concerned that the restrictions in Greenwich will create vehicle overspill to Charlton (Along Victoria Way etc.)  Edit. I realise they may have moved out of the area.

The issue about insufficient signage, which delayed the enforcement.  This related a) Insufficient advance notice b) the original signs implied that access was allowed to all Blue Badge vehicles, whereas access was only allowed to cars pre-registered as exempt [Blue badge holders can nominate one car only] .  These issues have been largely, but not entirely, addressed before enforcement.

Had the OP had been travelling Northbound (i.e. down Crooms hill) then there is a very good case for insufficient notice.  As there are no advance notices until the restriction itself, at which point the driver is faced with a fait accompli, as the road is narrow and no escape routes available.
Ironically my wife drove Northbound in contravention, and I prepared a challenge. But no PCN arrived...

However as the driver is travelling northbound, there are advance notices, as you describe [albeit compromised].  Also there is a clear straight run to the restrictions at the junction with Nevada St. where the restriction notices and the wooden planters are obvious and clear.  There are escape routes via Nevada St & Burney St. So I think the contravention is clear.

So I fear only hope is to plead for clemency or find a administrative error.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2025, 11:41:26 am by JoCo »

Thanks JoCo. Do you think it's likely that the compromised advance warning signs would significantly affect the chance that clemency would be granted? It seems a little unreasonable to put up advanced warning signs, and then when they become damaged and don't actually provide any advance warning, to insist on people paying the fine anyway. But I am not sure how to get that across without sounding antagonistic!

So maybe add into your reps something about the difficulties the scheme has caused with controversy in meetings of the council, but don't be confrontational. Post a draft here before submitting.

Hi Incandescent. I will be posting my appeal in the next few days, I was just wondering whether you had any opinions on my draft? I have successfully fought off several private parking ticket charge notices before but this is the first time I've appealed against a Local Council PCN.

So maybe add into your reps something about the difficulties the scheme has caused with controversy in meetings of the council, but don't be confrontational. Post a draft here before submitting.

Hi Incandescent. I will be posting my appeal in the next few days, I was just wondering whether you had any opinions on my draft? I have successfully fought off several private parking ticket charge notices before but this is the first time I've appealed against a Local Council PCN.
It does look rather long. Try and condense it down a bit. Rather too many councils never bother to read the reps anyway, and just send out Fob-Off letters. They may re-offer the discount, in which case you will have to decide whether to take the 'double-or-quits' gamble of taking them to London Tribunals.

Utterly utterly frustrated. Admittedly, I am close to the wire in terms of timings, but still within the time period allowed for appeal. I have got everything together, prepared three PDFs -- one of the main appeal text and another two containing images -- and the online portal at https://pcn.royalgreenwich.gov.uk does not allow me to submit the appeal. It gets all the way to the final stage where it says "uploading appeal documents" and then fails with "Error - Unable to upload your supporting evidence" and an obscure error "The page was not displayed because the request entity is too large."

So I thought, maybe this is because it doesn't like images inside PDFs. Recreated the images as JPEGs and made the PDF text-only. Still fails with same error.

So now I am unable to appeal and the deadline is this evening (or possible Monday evening).

I will try to take videos of the appeals web form failing as I submit it. Of course there is no way to actually contact them or talk to a real person for help, and in any case I am busy at work all day tomorrow.

Has anyone encountered this sort of problem before and might have any salient advice? I am tempted to print everything out and send it to them with a covering letter explaining that their web for did not work (and stating that I have video evidence to back this up) ... but maybe there is another approach?

Utterly utterly frustrated. Admittedly, I am close to the wire in terms of timings, but still within the time period allowed for appeal. I have got everything together, prepared three PDFs -- one of the main appeal text and another two containing images -- and the online portal at https://pcn.royalgreenwich.gov.uk does not allow me to submit the appeal. It gets all the way to the final stage where it says "uploading appeal documents" and then fails with "Error - Unable to upload your supporting evidence" and an obscure error "The page was not displayed because the request entity is too large."

So I thought, maybe this is because it doesn't like images inside PDFs. Recreated the images as JPEGs and made the PDF text-only. Still fails with same error.

So now I am unable to appeal and the deadline is this evening (or possible Monday evening).

I will try to take videos of the appeals web form failing as I submit it. Of course there is no way to actually contact them or talk to a real person for help, and in any case I am busy at work all day tomorrow.

Has anyone encountered this sort of problem before and might have any salient advice? I am tempted to print everything out and send it to them with a covering letter explaining that their web for did not work (and stating that I have video evidence to back this up) ... but maybe there is another approach?

I phoned Royal Greenwich Parking Services. Amazingly they actually picked up the phone after only about 10 minutes on hold and to be fair they were helpful. They advised me to submit the appeal without supporting documents and then email the documents to an email address they provided, quoting the PCN number and explaining the situation. So I have done that, now I wait to hear what the result of the appeal is.

I got back from holiday a few days ago to find an appeal rejection letter waiting for me. Unfortunately I now have until the 28th to pay the discounted fee, or alternatively consider taking it to the adjudicator.

The rejection letter refers to my being unaware of "the enforcement at this location, nor its hours of operation" but it completely ignores the other elements of my initial appeal, (specifically that the road leading up to the signs can be difficult to navigate, leading to you not really seeing the signs until it is too late ... and also that the additional warning signs were inoperative in both directions, etc) ... so they are essentially ignoring all of that and saying "the signs follow the law, and we reject the appeal". Then they say that "the adjudicator cannot allow an appeal on the basis of mitigating circumstances but may refer the case back to this Authority for further consideration" ... and there is a "Grounds of Appeal" section that says that the ONLY grounds of appeal are:


  • Contravention did not occur.
  • Vehicle was in control of someone else without my consent.
  • We are a hire firm.
  • I was not the owner
  • Penalty exceeds the amount applicable.

(None of which apply here).

This seems to be to be most unreasonable! There would appear to be no incentive for the authority to *ever* consider mitigating circumstances, if they can simply reject every time and then people are not allowed to take it to the adjudicator to discuss those circumstances!

I would love to appeal this case if I thought there was a chance that they might rule in my favour, but if the system is completely stacked against me at this point I am considering simply paying the £65. Does anyone think there's a chance I could successfully take it to adjudication, or perhaps argue that the process itself is at fault?









Have you looked at the evidence on their website yet ?

You are seen driving past two prominent "Flying Motorbike" signs of the normal size for this sort of thing, and you approached them head-on, so they would have been visible from quite some distance away. So really, the contravention is made out.

Quote
or perhaps argue that the process itself is at fault?
The enforcement process is statute based, with regulations for the detail, so you can't argue that one. However there may be a 'technical' appeal argument based on Greenwich mismanagement of the enforcement process, so wait a teeny bit to see what others may suggest, but don't miss the deadline for the discounted penalty if that is what you're minded to do if nothing comes up between now and the deadline.