Author Topic: PCN - Dartford, code 16 parked in permit space on street, Market Street  (Read 202 times)

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S23

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Hi all,

PCN issued 08/05/24. Vehicle parked in business permit holder only bay for short while. Street view link: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4434882,0.2183591,3a,51.6y,55.7h,79.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soXo8Wmb5gotYyuR9Kr-eQA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

PCN Front: Page 1
PCN Back: Page 2

Discussed with parking warden and I explained there was a distressed baby in the car who needed changing and no other parking locations. They 'made a note' and suggested I mention it when appealing.

What can you advise please about the validity, or otherwise (if anything)? Many thanks in advance
« Last Edit: May 15, 2024, 12:20:36 am by S23 »

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Incandescent

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Reading your narrative, your circumstances come under what is referred to as "mitigating circumstances", i.e you were not permitted to park there, but mitigating circumstances, ( distressed baby in the car who needed changing and no other parking locations), compelled you to do so.  Of course there may well be other, technical issues around the PCN, the parking location etc that would also be grounds for cancellation of the PCN, and others on here may spot one. For instance there is no telephone facility on the PCN for payment of the penalty.  It could be considered that this is discriminatory, and therefore grounds for cancellation.

The problem with "mitigating circumstances" is that only the council can cancel a PCN if they accept these. An adjudicator can only accept a set of legally defined circumstances, and mitigation is not one of them. In addition to this, councils are renowned in London for their venality and rapacity and usually reject all informal and even formal representations because they know from experience that most people just cough-up. Having said that, don't be disheartened, because it is always worthwhile submitting informal representations to a PCN, and especially in your circumstances. Sometimes somebody in a council with at least a smidgeon of humanity will accept such representations.  So submit reps on the compelling circumstances that essentially forced you to stop there, and post-up their reponse when you get it. Do mention your conversation with the CEO when the PCN was issued, as this should be in their notes.

S23

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Thank you for your response. Would it be beneficial to submit informal reps (polite letter around the mitigating circumstances) and separately also formal reps (for technical issues) at the same time in order to resolve it before the 14-day discount period ends?

Could anyone else kindly advise on whether there are any other technical issues with this?

Many thanks

Incandescent

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You can only submit formal representations at the Notice to Owner stage, but you're not there yet, so I suggest you submit an informal challenge explaining the circumstances, (based on your narrative here),  and also that you spoke to the CEO who said he would make a note of the situation. Post up their response when you get it.

Are you the vehicle owner and is the name and address on your V5 Registration Certificate up-to-date and correct in all details ? The Notice to Owner is sent to that address.

Councils invariably refuse all informal reps because they know most people then just cough-up, so don't be disappointed if they refuse your reps. Your problem at the moment is finding a cast-iron reason for the PCN to be cancelled. You will see that the PCN has no telephone or postal payment option, it is either on-line or by personal visit to the council office. I suspect this is not lawful, but nobody else has yet commented on this aspect, so I'll make a few enquiries. Whatever, it is certainly highly discriminatory in my opinion.

So, for now, submit an informal challenge. This will give us time to investigate the payment options issue. As regards the contravention itself, I can't yet see anything to refute this.

Incandescent

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S23, can you post up the whole pages for your PCN, so we can see the complete page and text top to bottom. There is a possible non-compliance with the regulations on PCN content.

S23

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S23, can you post up the whole pages for your PCN, so we can see the complete page and text top to bottom. There is a possible non-compliance with the regulations on PCN content.

Those uploaded above are both complete pages - I have double checked and everything has been captured. Let me know if you would still like new images

I have challenged the PCN informally within the 14 day period and will keep you updated. V5C has correct name/address

Many thanks

Incandescent

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Just to say that I looked for what councils must offer payment-wise on a PCN, but there is no mandatory requirement. The Statutory Guidance on Parking (October 2022) just says, under "Collecting penalty charges" the following: -

Quote
"Enforcement authorities should offer motorists a range of facilities for paying penalty charges. Where they provide payment centres these should be safe and accessible."
.

This PCN only contains two payment options.

cp8759

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@S23 if you get a rejection please post up a copy of the informal representations.

I've had a look on traffweb and this is the map tile: https://store.traffweb.app/kent/documents/parkmap/msched/Y29_rv8_2.pdf

There is an obvious issue because the traffic order creates a single bay, not two different bays with different restrictions.

One question I'm sure will come is, why didn't you pull over in one of the pay to park bays on the other side of the carriageway?

I'll get hold of the traffic order but there is often an exception for circumstances beyond the control of the driver, this might qualify. It's also not entirely true that the adjudicator cannot consider mitigation, he cannot allow based on mitigation but he can remit the case to the authority for reconsideration. When that happens in around a third of cases the council refuses, but in a third of cases they accept and in another third they do not respond (if they don't respond within 35 days they're deemed to have accepted the adjudicator's recommendation).
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

S23

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@S23 if you get a rejection please post up a copy of the informal representations.

I've had a look on traffweb and this is the map tile: https://store.traffweb.app/kent/documents/parkmap/msched/Y29_rv8_2.pdf

There is an obvious issue because the traffic order creates a single bay, not two different bays with different restrictions.

One question I'm sure will come is, why didn't you pull over in one of the pay to park bays on the other side of the carriageway?

I'll get hold of the traffic order but there is often an exception for circumstances beyond the control of the driver, this might qualify. It's also not entirely true that the adjudicator cannot consider mitigation, he cannot allow based on mitigation but he can remit the case to the authority for reconsideration. When that happens in around a third of cases the council refuses, but in a third of cases they accept and in another third they do not respond (if they don't respond within 35 days they're deemed to have accepted the adjudicator's recommendation).

The reason for not using another bay was simply that all were full at the time.

The appeal has been rejected - please kindly see the response here: https://drive.proton.me/urls/4D5GG4BB5W#ITz5xoSMLi06

Are the grounds mentioned in previous posts strong enough to make representations? Or would you advise paying the reduced fee in this case? Many thanks

Incandescent

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What hearts of stone they have in that council. I hope they all get to travel in Charon's boat when the time comes !
However, I'm not sure whether your circumstances would win at an adjudication, but see what the others say. You've got 14 days from the 28th May to pay the discount.

cp8759

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@S23 I suggest you wait for the notice to owner. The discount is largely irrelevant because, as long as you challenge the notice to owner within 14 days of the date of issue, the discount is almost invariably reoffered. This is because the council wants to give you an incentive not to appeal further.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

cp8759

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Re: PCN - Dartford, code 16 parked in permit space on street, Market Street
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2024, 06:29:25 pm »
@S23 any update?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

S23

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Re: PCN - Dartford, code 16 parked in permit space on street, Market Street
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2024, 06:51:42 pm »
Decided against any appeal and paid the fine in this case