3. Blue badge user in loading bay
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claire2373

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Blue badge user in loading bay
« on: March 16, 2024, 10:37:57 pm »
Hi looking for advice please. I was parked in a loading bay last sat, I didnt realise it at the time as there was no road markings just a sign further down, I had my blue badge on display and there was several other cars parked there also. I didn't take an pics at the time but got some off streetmap but it hasn't changed since then, i was parked where the white van is about.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2024, 10:41:50 pm by claire2373 »
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claire2373

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Re: Blue badge user in loading bay
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2024, 10:39:43 pm »
Pcn
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Incandescent

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Re: Blue badge user in loading bay
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2024, 11:56:59 pm »
You parked in a marked bay; OK, there were no carriageway markings but there is a sign. So why didn't you go and look at the sign ? It is encumbent on you when parking in such places (marked bays) to check for any possible restrictions there may be for the bay. This applies even if you are a BB holder.

Having said the above, the bay may not be marked correctly, but I'm not an expert on this, so see what the others say.  Please also post the back of the PCN as it may contain errors that make it void.

Edit
Having looked at GSV, (Nov 22), the bay used to be shorter but was lengthened after April 2021, (previous GSV view), but the double-yellow lines were not removed.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/AC9UqN5cyDSJts4J8
and Nov 22
https://maps.app.goo.gl/VpVYxYipg9BqXrt78

We often see things like this, and one has to wonder at council Highways Department competence. However, whether this incompetent change to the street markings would win an adjudication is another matter, but it could because a bay cannot have double-yellow lines because this means No Waiting 24x7, so how can there be a bay there at all ?

Anyway, see what the others say.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 12:08:31 am by Incandescent »
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Hippocrates

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Re: Blue badge user in loading bay
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2024, 10:58:59 am »
1.  The wording of the PCN in terms of the 28 days period is wrong since it does not comply with Schedule 2 para. 2 @  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2
(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,
In light of this procedural impropriety please cancel the PCN.

2. Depending on what the TMO says, BB holders are allowed to park in loading bays.

See cp's posts with decisions and the ones I have given.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/newham-green-st-parked-in-a-loading-place-or-bay-during-restricted-hours-without/msg4838/#msg4838
« Last Edit: March 17, 2024, 11:19:30 am by Hippocrates »
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

claire2373

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Re: Blue badge user in loading bay
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2024, 02:40:53 pm »
Back of pcn
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claire2373

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Re: Blue badge user in loading bay
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2024, 02:52:46 pm »
Should I write something like that, with the link you have attached
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claire2373

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Re: Blue badge user in loading bay
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2024, 10:26:00 pm »
Any advice on what I should write please, and do I need to appeal within 14 days ?
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Incandescent

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Re: Blue badge user in loading bay
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2024, 01:11:52 am »
Just wondering if the paragraph about Fixed Penalty Notices on the back of the PCN has any place on a Penalty Charge Notice. For me, it renders it void, or should do !

PCN says if reps are submitted within the 14 day discount period and refused, the discount will be re-offered. They must be received within the 14 days, not just send off.  Of course on-line submissions are instant.
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Hippocrates

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Re: Blue badge user in loading bay
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2024, 08:40:27 am »
You can use my draft re the PCN wording and cp's post with the decisions in the linked thread.  Just use the decisions in that thread. Please put up a draft first.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

Enceladus

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Re: Blue badge user in loading bay
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2024, 12:40:05 pm »
Quote from: Incandescent on March 19, 2024, 01:11:52 am
Just wondering if the paragraph about Fixed Penalty Notices on the back of the PCN has any place on a Penalty Charge Notice. For me, it renders it void, or should do !
I agree. The Fixed Penalty Notice paragraph on the PCN reverse has nothing to do with Traffic Management Act 2004 Penalty Charge Notices. Doncaster must know that so why is it there? It looks like intimidation, a veiled threat to drag the recipient into a Magistrate's Court if the PCN is not paid.

Maybe Doncaster managed to opt out some of their car parks from de-criminalised parking?
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claire2373

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Re: Blue badge user in loading bay
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2024, 04:22:47 pm »
Ok I've looked at your attached link, which bits do I need to pick out please for my draft, thanks
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Hippocrates

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Re: Blue badge user in loading bay
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2024, 07:05:36 pm »
1.  The wording issue:  copy and paste my post above.

2.  The BB parking in loading bays issue: Blue Badge holders are allowed to park in loading bays.  Please see these cases.  Use the links to the cases supplied by cp8759

In light of the above, please cancel the PCN

Name (Registered keeper)

Address
« Last Edit: March 19, 2024, 08:08:24 pm by Hippocrates »
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε

claire2373

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Re: Blue badge user in loading bay
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2024, 09:27:25 am »
I wish to challenge the PCN

The wording of the PCN in terms of the 28 days period is wrong since it does not comply with Schedule 2 para. 2 @  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/schedule/2
(d)that the penalty charge must be paid within the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the alleged contravention occurred,

You have stated in your informal rejection that "Blue badge holders are not permitted to park in a loading bay", this is not correct. I refer you to the following tribunal decisions:

Cassidy on behalf of Cassidy v Kirklees Metropolitan Council at
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gvuqjl_eFCact5ruLgpe4w1RLuoCj8pp/view?usp=drivesdk

The review decision in Cassidy on behalf of Cassidy v Kirklees Metropolitan Council at
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13-7oN_dLyNtY8DlTCmPdMFefqFFLbx8v/view?usp=drivesdk

Karen Lewin v Kent County Council (with Canterbury CC) at
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HOrYPHV6sikQSl-SHXfVpY4TyZE3sMcb/view?usp=drivesdk

Anthony Granville Clarke-Grenfell v Devon County Council at
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bZhSbg1ooKFvD2BE-ncIiq-_zoTbMLUY/view?usp=drivesdk

In light of the above the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,




Is this OK, thanks
« Last Edit: March 20, 2024, 10:35:57 am by claire2373 »
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Hippocrates

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Re: Blue badge user in loading bay
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2024, 10:08:44 am »
Please use:  challenge instead of appeal.  Otherwise, good to go.
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There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends a hearing, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply.
"Hippocrates"

ἔοικα γοῦν τούτου γε σμικρῷ τινι αὐτῷ τούτῳ σοφώτερος εἶναι, ὅτι ἃ μὴ οἶδα οὐδὲ οἴομαι ε
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cp8759

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Re: Blue badge user in loading bay
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2024, 11:18:11 pm »
Please let us know when you get a response. Doncaster is the sort of provincial council that we should be able to mop the floor with.

If the council rejects please do not be tempted to pay the discounted penalty.
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I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

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