Author Topic: ULEZ - Bailif Stage - Hired vehicle renters refuse to pay - £7000 fine  (Read 251 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Spoon

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
I rent out my Motorhome through an online service called 'GoBoony', we rented our motorhome out to two renters on 2 separate occasions close to eachother. They both took the vehicle into the ULEZ zone, one renter took it in 4 times the other once. 
We received the fine for these about 3 weeks after the MH was returned on the last occasion to us and we obviously gave the deposit back less some damage he had caused.

We immediately contacted the renters who promised to sort it, we checked back in with him a couple of days later and he confirmed it is in hand and they spoken to TFL.
Fast forward 1 month and we get a £4000 fine from ULEZ, the renters did not sort this.
We contacted TFL and explained the situation to which they gave us a form to fill out. In this form we included the rental contract and agreement which states all Tolls are the renters responsibility.

TFL got back to us in writing and stated as GoBoony is not owned by us we cannot invoke the rental agreement on their behalf, i then reappealed and explained the document is signed by myself and the renter, goboony merely supplied the document. TFL responded that because i am not a ltd company they cannot transfer liability on any of the occasions.

Fast forward 6 months and we are stuck with a £7000 fine and bailiffs trying to find us, i have appealed to the Traffic Enforcement Center, but they have refused out out of time application - no reason given and will not be given, but we can appeal by paying £220.

In my searches i have found a VERY similar case that was heard at London Tribunals case no. 9220805883 (in the RUCA section) It is pretty much the same case.

I want to take TFL to court and get the court to force TFL to transfer the fines to the renter.

I am a young father with 3 children, we simply do not have £7000 laying around or the ability to add anymore to our monthly bills, i'm tired, frustrated and demoralised but this whole situation.

Is there any advice out there that could help?

Evidence and PCN's: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1TpCJ7L0fT_kJJtHJB69z_KF7MwVnlJdj?usp=drive_link
« Last Edit: June 28, 2024, 12:06:29 pm by Spoon »

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


John U.K.

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1095
  • Karma: +21/-0
    • View Profile
Quote
I have tried to upload the correspondence but the files are too large.

Have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

for guidance on posting images.
Like Like x 1 View List

mdann52

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
The key question here is did you ever receive a formal notice of rejection, and did you appeal to the tribunal following that notice? How good your appeal is doesn't matter at the TEC stage, just the reasons for getting here.

I'm not convinced that hire agreement meets the requirement of Schedule 2, as it doesn't include a DoB or licence number (unless that's been retracted)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2024, 02:45:25 pm by mdann52 »

H C Andersen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1957
  • Karma: +41/-31
    • View Profile
OP, you need to get the timeline up front in a post pl.

We must see why you did not submit Statutory Declarations in time.

You received OfRs dated ** and *** on *** and *** respectively if you can remember.

Also, in TfL's letter 21 June 2023 they made it clear that there were several reasons why they could not transfer liability and these fell under the mandatory criteria of:
Vehicle-hire firm, and
Hiring agreement.

Separate matters. The former was explained by reference to your status and the latter because you did not supply a 'copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hiring agreement'.

In any event, their rejection(s) were dated June 2023. What happened since?

Ultimately you've got the option of paying and suing the persons concerned. But even here you have a problem because the quantum of the debts is well in excess of the minimum you could have paid if you had done so at the earliest opportunity after you had exhausted all procedural options. Frankly we can't really advise when you 'fast forward 6 months'.

Pl read the enforcement process here and respond focusing on those procedural matters which are key.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/ruc/understanding-enforcement-process

slapdash

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
  • Karma: +4/-0
    • View Profile
You left your name and address in the notice of rejection.

Enceladus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 419
  • Karma: +8/-0
    • View Profile
These aren't ULEZ charges. They're LEZ (Low Emission Zone) charges.

"The London Low Emission Zone requirements impact the following vehicles exceeding 3.5 tonnes GVW: HGVs, lorries, vans, motor caravans, motorised horseboxes, breakdown and recovery vehicles, snow ploughs, gritters, refuse collection vehicles, road sweepers, concrete mixers, fire engines, tippers, removal lorries and other specialist vehicles."

Your camper appears to have a GVW of 4000kg. So the penalty charge outstanding seems to be £3009 for each PCN plus enforcement agent (bailiff) charges.

Why didn't you appeal the Notices of Rejection with the Adjudicator?

How many PCNs are there, dates and PCN numbers?
How many Notices of Rejection?
And how many Orders for Recovery?
How many Notices of Enforcement from the bailiffs?

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5275
  • Karma: +122/-4
    • View Profile
@Spoon the courts have nothing to do with this. Parliament has decided that such disputes are to be decided by an adjudicator in the tribunal, not a judge of the county court. Whether you agree with this or not, that's what has been enacted in an Act of Parliament and unless Parliament changes the law, that's the end of the matter as far as questions of jurisdiction are concerned.

You have posted two notices of rejection which told you that you had 28 days to appeal to the adjudicator, you would have been provided an appeal form that you could have filled in and sent to London Tribunals. Did you ignore this or did you appeal to London Tribunals?
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order

Enceladus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 419
  • Karma: +8/-0
    • View Profile
Just to add to the above.

Your opening post implies that there are five PCNs in play, however the documents posted only relate to two of them.

The PCNs are LEZ (not ULEZ) PCNs and the penalty is £2000 for each, discounted by 50% for payment within 14 days. They have escalated beyond the Charge Certificate stage so now have been surcharged 50% to £3000 plus the £9 court registration fee.

If there are five live PCNs the enforcement agents will be looking for at least £15,655.

So what's the status of the remaining three PCNs?

You've told us that the bailiffs are trying to track you down. That implies that you've either received Notices of Enforcement or TFL have told you that the matter has escalated or that you've had a visit from a bailiff, possibly at an old address? Be under no illusions, if the bailiff doesn't know your correct address they will track you down.

You've posted up two notices, from the Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court, refusing your applications to submit Statutory Declarations Out of Time.

On what grounds did you submit the SDs? And what reasons did you put for being late?

Strictly speaking you're now beyond the time limit to submit N244 applications to have the refusals reviewed by a District Judge. It's on the letters from the TEC. That said there's a fighting chance that you might get such applications accepted for a hearing if you get something submitted before 4pm on Monday.

But right now I've no idea what you could say on your application.

You need to start feeding back PDQ.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2024, 06:08:51 pm by Enceladus »

cp8759

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5275
  • Karma: +122/-4
    • View Profile
Just to add, in theory it is possible to seek relief from sanctions to submit an application for a review out of time, because the court has a power to extend the 14 day time limit. But again you need some pretty solid reasons, just saying you didn't get round to it or weren't aware of the process won't get you anywhere.

I'm also not sure there are any grounds for applying to TEC in the first place, if you received the notice of rejection that told you to appeal to the tribunal and you simply ignored it, then you have no lawful grounds you could rely on to file anything at all with TEC.
I practice law in the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, London Tribunals, the First-tier tribunal for Scotland, and the Traffic Penalty Tribunal for Northern Ireland, but I am not a solicitor nor a barrister. Notwithstanding this, I voluntarily apply the cab rank rule. I am a member of the Society of Professional McKenzie Friends, my membership number is FM193.

Quote from: 'Gumph' date='Thu, 19 Jan 2023 - 10:23'
cp8759 is, indeed, a Wizard of the First Order