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The only thing I can see having looked at the video, is that it is a trivial contravention, and could therefore be considered "de minimis" This argument will be rejected by the council as they only want your money.  However would an adjudicator at London Tribunals agree it is de minimis ? With your back wheels in the box, possibly not, so it's a gamble, and you'd be risking an extra £65 if you took them there.

The other argument I remembered (this morning !), is that the driver thought they had fully cleared the junction. I've seen this succeed a few years ago for entry, when a driver thought he had stopped clear and not entered, but the car was about 2' into the junction.
Worth putting forward, I think. What is the traffic management benefit from walloping people for minor errors ?

That's the line I would go with - that you stopped where you did as you believed you had cleared the junction.  Had you known you were a foot or two inside you'd have crept forward into the remaining space behind the car in front.  In case you aren't aware, OP, it's not the act of stopping in the junction that's punishable, it's the act of entering the junction when stationary vehicles subsequently cause you stop inside.  Hence if you end up stopping because you thought you'd already passed through and it was physically possible to have exited if you'd wanted to, then that is a valid defence.  The issue here will be that there seems to have been very little clearance between you and the car in front - the angle of the video footage makes it difficult to judge quite how much room there was though so equally hard to establish that there wasn't quite enough room.

Separately, the photo that was included is very misleading - it shows no sign of a car in front blocking you in (as it is from the period after it moves off, after you've already been sitting in the box for a while).  Was that one they provided to you, or a still you clipped from the video?

This case needs be considered when thinking of appeal so similar to yours it could be a twin

2170439250

This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. The alleged contravention occurred in Barking Road at 1.49pm on 9 April 2017.

Paragraph 7(1) of Part II of Schedule 19 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 states that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. It is an offence to enter the box without a clear exit and to then stop in the box due to stationary vehicles in front.

Paragraph 7(2) states that this prohibition does not apply to any person causing a vehicle to enter a box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of making a right turn out of the box and stopping the vehicle for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary waiting to complete the right turn.

I have reviewed the CCTV footage in this case and I am allowing the appeal. The footage shows that, when Mr Ali's vehicle entered the box. the traffic beyond the box was stationary but that there was a space that appeared sufficient for another vehicle between the box exit line and the first stationary vehicle. Mr Ali's vehicle entered into that space and stopped so that just the rear wheels were over the box line. The footage does not enable me to see whether or not Mr Ali's vehicle had any further space in front but I suspect that this may well have been a case where the driver did have sufficient space and that Mr Ali did not even know that the rear wheels were across the box line. I am not satisfied that this was a case where the vehicle was stopped in the box because of the stationary vehicle in front and I find for this reason that the alleged contravention did not occur.

Talking about driving standards from someone who thinks driving on the opposite side of the road is illegal is a bit rich

Part of the HGV test requires you to reverse and put your back end into a metre long box I would venture that even in a car over 50% would fail this and it is much easier to judge where the front of your car is than the back

Good luck re de minimis.

You'll have to submit this under "any other reason":


The link will redirect to https://imgur.com/a/lfZqhu3 but do not put this link into the representation, I will email you a link which will provide an audit trail of the number of clicks it receives (do not click on that link yourself). If the click count remains at zero, we'll be able to show that they've not considered all the evidence before responding to the representation. If they say that they've considered all the evidence, we've got them for lying as well.