Author Topic: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?  (Read 3764 times)

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Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #30 on: »
Here's yet another link. - to the proposed siting of cameras, signs etc...  (For completeness sake, to add to my collection of links).
https://moderngov.kingston.gov.uk/documents/s105991/Annex%201%20-%20PLAN%2020mph%20Kingston%20Hill.pdf. I would like to promise no more links, but I can't.

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #31 on: »
Good morning.  So it looks like the TMO quoted in the met police defence was revoked on 10th October 2024 when it published their kingston upon thames (moving traffic restrictions) order 2024 no. 15. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VH0h-JkSu_5okGFuF0hcgwco-eFnkXIO/view?usp=drive_link

However, my biggest issue is with the signs around kingston vale and kingston hill.  Following, whilst not agreeing with, their plans to impose 20mph around these two roads, why did they actively put new 30MPH terminal signs on the entry points into Kingston Vale at Derwent Avenue and Robin Hood Lane?  This was not there last year, why is it there now?  And why have they put the wrong speed limit on as this is confusing?  https://maps.app.goo.gl/YUnzEoQmYLsuAPPg7


Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #32 on: »

I would like to promise no more links, but I can't.

I can...
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #33 on: »
I think you need to concentrate on your particular problem and not concern yourself with the other locations you mention.

So it seems that the TMO that PC Wilson relies on in his evidence was revoked. If you defended the charge on that basis you would not be permitted to “ambush” the prosecution with that defence. They would be given the opportunity to amend their evidence.

That means you will need to establish what TMO they do rely on to bring the charge. It seems that this would be the Order which we have not seen, but about which we only have information from the media portal.

If that Order does mean that the 20 limit begins 150 metres beyond (i.e. the London side) of Kingston Hill’s junction with Warren Road, it would seem to fit the signage.

Coming from the A3, the first “30” terminal side is near the shops in Kingston Vale.  After that, there is nothing until the “20” terminal sign just after the “Galsworthy House” bus stop. Then there are “20” repeaters with camera signs, one either side of Eastcott Close with the second mounted on the same post as the camera which presumably was the one which caught you.

I do not believe a defence of insufficient signage would succeed. The terminal sign is perfectly clear (at least it is on GSV, dated June 25) as are the repeater/camera signs.

This leaves you to decide whether or not to challenge the charge on the basis of a deficient Traffic Order. We haven’t seen it so cannot be absolutely sure what it says. It seems perfectly clear to me what the signage conveys. It’s just a question of whether the limit is lawful.

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #34 on: »
Yes, indeed.  That all makes perfect sense.  I am not sure if you are able to access google drive files but this is the link that I provided earlier to the full traffic order on the RBK website. 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VH0h-JkSu_5okGFuF0hcgwco-eFnkXIO/view?usp=drive_link

The traffic order is a big document but there are only a few bits of relevance - the wording of the restrictions and the maps which show the locations of the changes implemented in this order.  The maps on kingston vale are on pages 55 and 56.  From where it comes off the A3, the maps show that the 20mph has been added until where it meets Kingston hill when it is unmarked on the map (meaning it hasn't changed and remains  30mph), creating a very random gap on Kingston hill which is 30mph.  Then the Traffic Order states that the speed limit becomes 20mph again around Coombe Ridings where there is a 20mph terminal sign which I have disputed as being not well located as it is behind a bus stop which is frequently used.  As you have pointed out, this is likely to be a slim line of defence.

The map is found on page 66 of the Traffic Order and the rest of the hill is shown on page 72 of the document.

From the bottom of Kingston Vale until the camera by Eastcott Close/ Warren Road, the signage is an absolute mess.  If you travel from the bottom of Kingston Vale, we enter a new 20mph speed limit with no signs to indicate this, neither as terminal signs nor any roundels.  If you enter Kingston Vale from a side street (Robin Hood Lane or Derwent Avenue), there are new terminal signs indicating that the speed limit is 30mph, when it should indicate 20mph.  When Kingston Vale becomes Kingston Hill, there is no new terminal sign saying that there is now a 30mph limit.  At the top of the hill, where there are the cameras, there is the first correct terminal sign albeit, arguably, it is not well positioned. 

Can the Traffic Order not be challenged on the grounds that the implementation of the new order is deficient?  The traffic authority responsible for both signage and the traffic order itself is RBK.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2025, 08:05:58 pm by l_maktari »

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #35 on: »
To challenge what is ostensibly a lawful Order, based on procedural impropriety, Wednesbury unreasonableness, etc.,  you would need to seek a Judicial Review in the High Court. The magistrates lack the supervisory jurisdiction to quash the Order, or disregard it (other than on the grounds of it having been revoked or never enacted).
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #36 on: »
I certainly don't have the means or knowledge to do this at the high court.  So the only course of action will be to plead for clemency.  If this is rejected, could I get even bigger fines than the original £100 per alleged contravention?

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #37 on: »
Having been in similar situations in my speeding days on motorcycles - big ones - I would say I need my licence for work purposes as a starter. But the court is bound by statutory penalties of course.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #38 on: »
do statutory penalties include additional punitive penalties for those challenging them at court?  I still don't understand why they didn't offer me a speed awareness course, at least for one of the penalties.

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #39 on: »
  If this is rejected, could I get even bigger fines than the original £100 per alleged contravention?

You would be sentenced according to the sentencing guidelines - almost certainly more than £100, particularly when you add on court costs and the victim surcharges.
I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #40 on: »
I still don't understand why they didn't offer me a speed awareness course, at least for one of the penalties.

Not much help now, but did you try asking them why you weren't offered an SAC? Wouldn't have been guaranteed to make any difference, but would have stood a far better chance than telling us that you don't understand why.
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #41 on: »
Good question though re SACS. Has the OP sought legal advice other than on here? Would there be a duty solicitor available on the day? Just trying to be positive.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #42 on: »
Quote
Would there be a duty solicitor available on the day?

No. The Duty Solicitor is available only to defendants appearing for the first time to face a charge for an offence which can carry  custodial sentence.

Re: Kingston Council - is the new 20mph speed limit on Kingston Hill lawful?
« Reply #43 on: »
Thanks.
IF YOU RECEIVE A MOVING TRAFFIC PCN PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE MAKING A REPRESENTATION:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/moving-traffic-pcns-missing-mandatory-information-the-london-local-authorities-a/msg102639/#msg102639


How do we get more people to fight their PCNs?

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

If you do not even make a challenge, you will surely join "The Mugged Club".

I am not omniscient. cp8759 and mrmustard are true geniuses. I know my place in the hierarchy of The Three Musketeers. 😊 "The Clinician", "The Gentleman" and "The Showman"

My e mail address for councils:

J.BOND007@H.M.S.S.c/oVAUXHALLBRIDGE/LICENSEDTOEXPOSE.SCAMS.CO.UK

Last mission accomplished:

https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/southwark-to-r