Author Topic: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence  (Read 2055 times)

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variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
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Hi all,

Great forum and I have read the 'read this first' sticky.

I have received a NIP for an offence of exceeding variable speed by automatic camera device - 63mph in a 50 limit. I have read the NIP carefully and all seems in order and received within guideline times. I have also gone onto staffordshirepas to review the evidence and notify them that I am the driver/keeper.

my question is around this evidence - it is formed of four photographs:

1) my car on what appears to be a relatively empty stretch of motorway
2) close up of rear of my car showing reg on same motorway stretch
3) same photo as 1 with some lines on it and a circle on my rear wheel - I assume these are radar calibration lines or something
4) picture of a different looking section of motorway with gantry signs showing '50'. this photo does NOT show my car.

My question is reading guidelines on speeding offences evidence the evidence 'should' show your car passing speed restriction signs. photo 1 of my car shows no such signs. it is simply my car on a relatively empty section of motorway with no signs in evidence and no gantry. in photo 4 of the gantry showing 50 my car is not present and the motorway is considerably busier. given there is no evidence directly showing my car in it with a speed limit sign do I have grounds to contest the charge? it is also worth noting that I do genuinely observe these limits as I have a speed awareness course for an offence on almost the same stretch of motorway previously within the last two years (I think), so I am genuinely careful. Added to this I'm doing 63 mph on a normal looking motorway stretch so I'm clearly slowing for something - probably just seen the gantry ahead of me (I'm guessing).

the motorway is M6 northbound between j10A-13 (1 mile before J12 for the A5 Telford) and this is what photo 4 shows.

TIA
Steve

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Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
« Reply #1 on: »
4) picture of a different looking section of motorway with gantry signs showing '50'. this photo does NOT show my car.
HADECS3.

The shots of your car are just past the gantry and the auxiliary shot is contemporaneous.  Your car will be in the auxiliary shot but can sometimes be difficult to isolate.  (But it's primary purpose is to prove the prevailing limit)

There is a grace period for enforcement if the signs did illuminate or lower after you passed the gantry.

The lines and car identify the offending vehicle.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2025, 12:43:28 pm by JustLoveCars »

Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
« Reply #2 on: »
Quote
My question is reading guidelines on speeding offences

Where have you read that?
I am not qualified to give legal advice in the UK. While I will do my best to help you, you should not rely on my advice as if it was given by a lawyer qualified in the UK.

Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote
My question is reading guidelines on speeding offences

Where have you read that?

just on AI internet searches on radar enforced variable speed limits and I thought also that it was a general guideline that the driver would be aware of the speed limit via visible means i.e. signage and/or other. my point being that in none of the photos is my car visible with a prevailing speed limit shown. however if this is enough for them to prove the case and there is no point me contesting then I will cop the COFP and move on with my life....? my point being that there is no photo showing my car and that gantry in the same shot. it is really difficult using the traffic in the opposite lane to judge where my car will have been in relation to the gantry, my guess is that I've just gone under the gantry (as per other reply) and it was the first one I have seen - I would have slowed sufficiently if there had been previous gantries illuminated. from what I have seen in replies so far I can then infer that it doesn't matter even if this is the first gantry on the motorway showing the speed restriction - there is no grace period for passing under it at over that limit...?

there is no grace period applicable in terms of them having changed suddenly - the timing on the photo says 19 mins and change 'since last change'.

unfortunately my stupid dash cam SD card didn't have enough memory on it and there journey has since been looped over as this would have been conclusive either way. I have now purchased a 512G card!!!

Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
« Reply #4 on: »
Personally I wouldn't rely on AI for anything! It seems like you're bng to rights sorry to say. You may get an SAC, if you choose to contest it in course it will cost a lot of money if you lose.
Bus driving since 1973. My advice, if you have a PSV licence, destroy it when you get to 65 or you'll be forever in demand.

Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
« Reply #5 on: »
ok fair enough, I don't think ill get another SAC as I think I'm still in the 2 year window from the last.

I was just seeking clarification as none of the photos show my car with a limit but if they don't have to then that's fine. I just wish id thought to put a bigger SD card in my dashcam!!

Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
« Reply #6 on: »
[there is no grace period applicable in terms of them having changed suddenly - the timing on the photo says 19 mins and change 'since last change'.

The system is such that there is about 30 seconds between the sign changing and the camera enforcing the new limit as far as I'm aware.

Your timing on the photo says it was 19 minutes prior to your triggering the camera that the enforcement limit was last changed.

Speed limits apply from the sign, any slowing down should be done so that you are doing the limit as you pass the sign, I know lots of us don't but ...

A final comment or two - do Staffordshire allow you to nominate yourself on line - many forces don't. And that speed could just be eligible for a course (10% +9 is my understanding) unless you have done one in the last two years.

Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
« Reply #7 on: »
...my point being that there is no photo showing my car and that gantry in the same shot.
As I said - your car *is* in the auxiliary shot (usually you can make it out but it's not fatal if you can't).  However, that's immaterial as there's a shot taken at exactly the same time showing you just past the gantry - that is sufficient to convict.

Those AI responses can be extremely inaccurate.  I guess that's why you've asked here...  ;)

Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
« Reply #8 on: »
How many "r"s in "strawberry"?

Basically, all the elements of the offence need to be proven in order to be convicted at a contested trial. There is no requirement that all elements are proven by a single photograph.
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
« Reply #9 on: »
ok - I guess my point is that there is absolutely nothing in the photos to conclusively prove to ME that I passed under that exact gantry at 63mph. none of the photographs show this. however if they don't have to then this is fine - ill accept the (likely) 3 points.

All the photos really show graphically is me driving down a nondescript piece of motorway. Another photo of a gantry with a speed limit on it and my car not in it. if they are allowed to digitally prove that I am in the photo by gantry photo locations only then that's fine. it is tantamount to stating 'your car isn't visible in this photo but we know where photo 1 was taken and we also know where the auxiliary was taken and even though you aren't in the auxiliary photo the gantry location is enough'.....?

sorry - I don't get the strawberry ref...is it because they aren't consecutive but are all there....not sure...?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2025, 02:05:12 pm by Jakestar »

Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
« Reply #10 on: »
ok - I guess my point is that there is absolutely nothing in the photos to conclusively prove to ME that I passed under that exact gantry at 63mph. none of the photographs show this. however if they don't have to then this is fine - ill accept the (likely) 3 points.


The photos provided are not necessarily evidential. You cannot assume that you've seen all the evidence.

Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
« Reply #11 on: »
Quote
I guess my point is that there is absolutely nothing in the photos to conclusively prove to ME that I passed under that exact gantry at 63mph.

Vehicle speeds are measured by a radar device mounted on the gantry support on the near side of the carriageway. When the device detects a vehicle exceeding the posted speed limit a photograph is taken of the vehicle. Since the camera is mounted on the gantry, facing the direction in which the traffic is travelling, the gantry will not be visible. This is the one which identifies your car. This is all the police need to secure a conviction. Your car will be identified, its speed will have been measured by an approved device and you will have provided the driver’s details.

However, another photograph is taken at the same time but taken from a point prior to the gantry. This takes a photograph of the speed limit displayed on the gantry at the time of the alleged offence. At the time this is taken your car will have passed the gantry, will be some way beyond it and it may or may not be visible in this second photograph (very often not). Without this the police could almost certainly still secure a conviction by producing in evidence the records held by National Highways which record the times that variable speed limits were imposed, but the photograph makes that unnecessary.

If you look at those two photographs you will see annotations on them which include the identity of the location (which will be the same), the time they were taken (which will also be the same), the time elapsed since the limit was imposed, the speed recorded by the approved device together with an image of your car

What further proof would you be looking for?)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2025, 03:19:13 pm by NewJudge »

Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
« Reply #12 on: »
none really - you've actually answered the question I had tbf. i.e. how are cameras positioned and used given that only one shows my actual car. but as I say - asked and answered....

guessing I don't have grounds for refuting this then, ill see what COFP is offered.

Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
« Reply #13 on: »
sorry - I don't get the strawberry ref...is it because they aren't consecutive but are all there....not sure...?

Google is your friend
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

Re: variable speed limit - 63 in 50 - question on evidence
« Reply #14 on: »
or is it fwend?
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