Author Topic: STAMP OOD  (Read 401 times)

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wiljand

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STAMP OOD
« on: November 24, 2024, 11:22:59 am »
Hi All,

We received a speeding fine for myself in my wife's car a couple of months ago. We sent back the initial form to say that we would pay the fine and do the speed awareness course. After a month or 2 we received the documents back from the post office as the stamp was out of date (didn't even know that was a thing!). It just so happens that the day after we got the court documents.

My question really is how to plea to the secondary charge of not supplying driver details? Obviously we did attempt to in good faith do this.... Just not sure it's worth the fight?

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666

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Re: STAMP OOD
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2024, 11:40:15 am »
There is no "We" in this.

Presumably your wife is the registered keeper, received the initial notice, and has now received the SJPN. But you were driving. Is that correct?

If so, she must plead NOT guilty to the speeding charge.

For the "fail to furnish details" charge she may be best simply pleading guilty, to minimise the fine and costs, while giving a brief explanation in the Mitigation section of the form.

See what others think



wiljand

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Re: STAMP OOD
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2024, 11:46:19 am »
Thank you so much for the reply! Yeah that is the case.

So frustrating as we obviously sent back the letter (even had the marked envelope). Tried talking to Hampshire police but they are not willing to reconsider and just say 'go to the courts'....

So she needs to plead not guilty to the initial and then probs guilty to second and put in some explantation?


666

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Re: STAMP OOD
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2024, 12:23:23 pm »

So she needs to plead not guilty to the initial and then probs guilty to second and put in some explantation?
She MUST plead NG to speeding. First, she isn't guilty! Second, the police have no evidence to convict anyone, since they don't know who was driving.

As for the other charge, wait for some other views.


andy_foster

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Re: STAMP OOD
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2024, 01:11:53 pm »
Received wisdom says that the only issue is the s. 172 charge (as indicated above).
The issue regarding the s. 172 charge is whether or not it was reasonably practicable to provide the information - which would appear to boil down to whether the court accept that she did not know that RM had reneged on non-barcoded stamps, and possibly whether they somehow consider that she ought to have known.

For the sake of completeness...

S. 172(7)(b) RTA 1988 provides that it is a defence if it was not reasonably practicable to provide the information, or that it was not reasonably practicable to provide the information within the 28 days and that it was provided as soon as was reasonably practicable afterwards.

Received wisdom says that once the s. 172 charge has been raised, the clock stops - so the second part is of no application in this case.

Case law regarding service of the NIP on the RK is that it is served when it is delivered (which is deemed to be 2 working days after posting first class unless the contrary is proven) - Gidden v Chief Constable of Humberside. This would seem to apply equally to the s. 172 response - if RM declined to deliver it (ignoring the question of whether a depricated stamp constituted sending by first class post), then it was not served and the information was not given. Which brings us back to the defence under s. 172(7)(b).

Reasonable practicability/diligence would not generally extend to checking something that you reasonably assumed you had no reason to check, or taking steps to rectify something that you reasonably assumed you had no reason to rectify.

I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

NewJudge

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Re: STAMP OOD
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2024, 02:05:25 pm »
Quote
Reasonable practicability/diligence would not generally extend to checking something that you reasonably assumed you had no reason to check, or taking steps to rectify something that you reasonably assumed you had no reason to rectify.

The problem I see with that is [the court may consider] that, assuming it was a non-barcoded stamp, there can be few people in the country who do not know that they are no longer valid (and have not been so for more than a year). The OP's wife will have to convince them that she is one of those few.

Quote
My question really is how to plea to the secondary charge of not supplying driver details?

She should be aware that the consequences of a conviction for "failing to provide driver's details" are not trivial. This is by no means a "secondary" charge. Indeed it is now the only charge that will succeed and it carries a harsher penalty than speeding. With a guilty plea she will pay a fine of a week's net income. She will also pay a "victim surcharge" of 40% of that fine and costs of around £90.

As well as that she will have six points imposed on her driving record, but the biggest penalty of all is that she will have an endorsement code (MS90) which gives insurers a fit of the vapours. She will see considerably increased premiums for up to five years.

If she pleads not guilty but is convicted following a trial, the fine will increase to 1.5 week's net income and the costs could be as much as £650.

wiljand

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Re: STAMP OOD
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2024, 12:59:28 pm »
When we submit The SJPN can we attach evidence online?

wiljand

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Re: STAMP OOD
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2024, 02:16:35 pm »
Hi All,

Below is my mitigating response. If anyone is able to give feedback on whether this sounds reasonable it would be much appreciated,

Mitigating Circumstances

I would like to provide a detailed explanation and timeline of events that led to the NIP/172 form not being received by Hampshire Constabulary, and the subsequent discovery that I was not driving at the time of the offense.

28.06.2024 – I received the NIP/172 Reminder Letter. Based on my recollection, as my husband and I had shared the driving on a return journey from holiday, I believed I was the driver at the time of the alleged speeding offense. I completed the form accordingly, naming myself as the driver.

09.07.2024 – I returned the completed NIP/172 form to the Summary Justice Unit, Hampshire & Isle of Wight Constabulary, using a First Class stamp from a booklet we had at home.

05.11.2024 – I received the completed NIP/172 form back from Royal Mail, marked as undeliverable. The reason cited was that the stamp was “No Longer Valid for Postage.” I later learned that since 31 July 2023, Royal Mail had invalidated non-barcoded stamps.
The returned envelope included my original addressed envelope (see Appendix A), with markings indicating that the addressee had not collected it from the sorting office. This suggests that the form did not reach Hampshire Constabulary due to the expired stamp.
Neither my husband nor I frequently use postal services, as our work is conducted online. When completing and sending the form, we were unaware of this change in postal requirements, leading to the unfortunate use of an expired stamp.

05.11.2024 (same day) – Upon receiving the returned NIP/172 form, I immediately attempted to rectify the issue. I contacted Hampshire Constabulary through various channels (phone, Facebook, Twitter, and their website) to explain the circumstances and seek guidance.

06.11.2024 – I coincidentally received a Single Justice Procedure Notice (SJPN) from HMCTS Crime. This letter included photographic evidence of the vehicle at the time of the offense, which showed that my husband, not I, was driving. I contacted HMCTS immediately and was advised to first reach out to Hampshire Constabulary to explain the situation.

07.11.2024 – Hampshire Constabulary responded to my email and online submission, informing me that I would need to proceed through the court system to address the matter.

Additional Context

I would like to respectfully highlight the following points:

Section 172(7)(b) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 – This clause provides a defense if it was not "reasonably practicable" to provide the required information within the specified timeframe.
I took all reasonable steps to comply with the NIP/172 requirements, completing and posting the form on 09.07.2024. However, the postal error caused by my use of an expired stamp—a mistake I was unaware of at the time—was beyond my control.
Upon receiving the returned form on 05.11.2024, I acted immediately to address the situation, contacting Hampshire Constabulary and later responding to the SJPN.
Efforts to Correct the Driver Identification – After reviewing the photographic evidence included with the SJPN, it became clear that my husband was driving at the time of the offense.
While I originally completed the NIP/172 form based on my best recollection at the time, I am now able to provide accurate information regarding the driver.
This discrepancy was an honest mistake, as my husband and I shared driving responsibilities during our return journey from holiday, and the form was completed in good faith.
Postal Error Due to Expired Stamp – The invalidation of non-barcoded stamps in July 2023 was an administrative change I was unaware of. As I rarely use postal services, I unknowingly attached an expired stamp, which led to the form being undelivered.
The returned envelope and its markings (see Appendix A) clearly show that my attempt to send the form was made in good faith.
I took immediate corrective steps upon discovering this issue, demonstrating my commitment to resolving the matter.
Request for Consideration

I hope the court will consider the unforeseen postal issue and my honest mistake in initially identifying myself as the driver. It was never my intention to avoid responsibility or to delay the process. I have made every effort to rectify the situation promptly upon realizing the issues and remain fully cooperative in providing accurate information.

Thank you for your understanding and consideration in reviewing these mitigating circumstances.

Southpaw82

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Re: STAMP OOD
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2024, 03:01:54 pm »
1. Use a British English spell checker (e.g. “offence” not “offense”).

2. That is not mitigation, it is a defence. If I read that, sitting as a judge, I would refuse to accept the guilty plea as it is equivocal.

andy_foster

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Re: STAMP OOD
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2024, 03:20:55 pm »
I don't think that the OP has indicated that they intend to plead guilty, beyond drafting "mitigation".

That said, I would happily string the OP from the nearest lamp post (well perhaps not the nearest - preferably somewhere downwind) for continuing to adopt the persona of "we", and for drip feeding the fact that the nomination that was not served was also incorrect.

I would perhaps add that if anyone has any wizard wheezes, they can keep them to themselves, or I will need to find more lamp posts.
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

NewJudge

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Re: STAMP OOD
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2024, 03:33:30 pm »
Is your wife pleading guilty or not guilty?

If she is pleading not guilty there is no need to mention all of this because she will be required to present it to the court at her trial. Nobody will take much notice of it before then.

If she is pleading guilty she may find that the court rejects that plea. Much of what she mentions, particularly from where she raises s172(7)(b) forms the basis of a defence and the court will probably find that her guilty plea is not unequivocal.

One factor that is in her favour which I had not previously noticed is the considerable delay (of almost four months) between sending the response and it being returned undelivered. Had it been returned a little more promptly there is every likelihood the situation could have been recovered before a prosecution was launched.

That said, it is impossible to forecast how a court will view this. The initial problem is of her own making but it was certainly made far more difficult for her to recover from it by Royal Mail's tardiness.