Author Topic: Speeding and failure to notify  (Read 533 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Rabrab31

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Speeding and failure to notify
« on: February 29, 2024, 02:00:45 pm »
Speeding and failure to notify who driver was.

I am in England.

In Sept I was caught speeding, was sent the letter  but I only got this letter in Jan as it was sent to the wrong address (neighbour had been holding on to it and just forgot to give it to me).

I emailed the ticket office as 28 days had passed and they opened up the online portal so I could pay the 100. So I paid the fine, and sent my license details off but forgot to send the driver nomination form.

I have been sent a single justice procedural notice today to charge me for speeding and for failing to name a driver.

I don't know what to do, I have paid this fine on 9th Feb and accepted the points so I don't want to plead guilty to the speeding as I have already acknowledged it.

In terms of the nomination letter it was an honest mistake, the last few months have been really stressful after being a victim of a crime myself (arson, my car was set fire to at work followed by a malicious email - they never found who did it). I took over a month off work and found a new job because I felt like I couldn't work there any more. Started new job mid Jan.

Does anyone have any advice for me as I don't want a 1k fine and 6 points for what was an honest mistake.

Thank you

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


andy_foster

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 339
  • Karma: +5/-3
  • Location: Reading
    • View Profile
Re: Speeding and failure to notify
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2024, 02:18:04 pm »
How was the notice "sent to the wrong address"?
Was this Avon & Somerset? Other than A&S' "Super NIP", you generally don't get offered a COFP until after you have confirmed that you were the driver.

Have the points been added to your licence?


I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

Rabrab31

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Speeding and failure to notify
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2024, 02:19:22 pm »
Postie must have dropped it in next door, the address was correct on the letter.

No it's West Mercia police.

The point have not been added yet.

guest46

  • Guest
Re: Speeding and failure to notify
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2024, 03:04:46 pm »
What was 'the letter'? Do you have it now?

Rabrab31

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Speeding and failure to notify
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2024, 03:09:22 pm »
I have the letter with the charges and the reply form . Options are guilty do not attend court. Guilty attend court or not guilty and go to trial. I don't have the letter of the speeding offence anymore because you have to send off various parts of it with driving license details etc.

guest46

  • Guest
Re: Speeding and failure to notify
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2024, 07:01:19 am »
I have the letter with the charges and the reply form . Options are guilty do not attend court. Guilty attend court or not guilty and go to trial. I don't have the letter of the speeding offence anymore because you have to send off various parts of it with driving license details etc.

I suspect you have misread/misinterpreted the 'letter of speeding offence'which most probably asked only for the nomination of the driver at the time and nothing else. Correct completion of that would have generated a second letter with the options, addressed to said driver.

Other more knowledgeable will add, but I think you'd be best going NG and attend court,explain the situation and ask for the original fine to be reinstated (plus costs) due to administrative difficulties.

Rabrab31

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Speeding and failure to notify
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2024, 07:18:17 am »
The original letter had a few sections. Section 1 nomination of driver then it had your options- pay fine or go to court. Next section was details for payment which I have done. This was all on the same letter. It was paid via an online portal

guest46

  • Guest
Re: Speeding and failure to notify
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2024, 07:42:44 am »
Then the advice stands - plead NG, go to the hearing and defend the case.

As you have your e-mail which enabled the opening of the case, their reply and a receipt for payment, you've got a decent defence although not having the original letter is not great (but possibly not fatal). Stand by and see what others think.

mdann52

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Speeding and failure to notify
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2024, 01:18:12 pm »
Then the advice stands - plead NG, go to the hearing and defend the case.

Even though they have not complied with the offer by their own admission, by failing to provide the required details with the CoFP to allow licence endorsing?

OP - I think your best off pleading guilty here if you did not send off drivers details as prescribed when paying the CoFP. This will get you 33% off.

I'm not convinced competing one section of a "Super NIP" gets you off the hook if it says to send licence details elsewhere for endorsement.

The Rookie

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Location: Warwickshire
    • View Profile
Re: Speeding and failure to notify
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2024, 02:44:15 pm »
OP - I think your best off pleading guilty here
If you don't know what you're on about, better not to post, there is a tried and reliable way to minimise the harm here and it's not by pleading guilty.
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

DrSatan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Speeding and failure to notify
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2024, 04:09:24 pm »
In Sept I was caught speeding, was sent the letter  but I only got this letter in Jan as it was sent to the wrong address (neighbour had been holding on to it and just forgot to give it to me).
Is your neighbour willing to be a witness that this is what happened? because if so, you've got a good defence that you didn't fail to name the driver, in fact you did within 28 days of receiving the letter.

You've also got a nailed-on defence to escape punishment for the underlying speeding offence also, as the NIP wasn't delivered to you within 14 days. A properly addressed envelope is presumed to be delivered unless the contrary is proved, but you've got a witness that it wasn't delivered.

NewJudge

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 97
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Speeding and failure to notify
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2024, 04:29:37 pm »
Quote
You've also got a nailed-on defence to escape punishment for the underlying speeding offence also, as the NIP wasn't delivered to you within 14 days. A properly addressed envelope is presumed to be delivered unless the contrary is proved, but you've got a witness that it wasn't delivered.

I think you need to have a read up on the difference between "delivered" and "served": Or perhaps I do (see below).

Quote
Postie must have dropped it in next door, the address was correct on the letter.


Quote
Is your neighbour willing to be a witness that this is what happened? because if so, you've got a good defence that you didn't fail to name the driver, in fact you did within 28 days of receiving the letter.

It's difficult to say for sure because details are somewhat lacking. But I get the impression that the OP did not provide a sufficient response to the s172 notice. It seems he went straight to paying 100. In any event he is where he is.

The way to deal with this is to plead not guilty to both offences. You can state in your response to the SJPN that you would be willing to plead guilty to speeding on the condition that the FtP charge is dropped. Some courts are accepting this offer via the SJ process, but others may require your attendance.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2024, 07:07:35 pm by NewJudge »

andy_foster

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 339
  • Karma: +5/-3
  • Location: Reading
    • View Profile
Re: Speeding and failure to notify
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2024, 05:42:56 pm »
Under s. 7 Interpretation Act 1978, there is a rebuttable presumption of service for a correctly posted notice required or permitted by an Act of Parliament, unless the Act indicates otherwise.

Actual service is effected when it is delivered to the party's last known address, not when it is delivered to some other address but bearing the party's last known address, or delayed due to a postal strike but bearing Peter Gidden's last known address.

Technically, Gidden applies to the service of a NIP for the purposes of s. 1 RTOA 1988 (which itself has a rebuttable presuming provision), but it require some violence to the language of s. 172 to argue that s. 7 IA 1978 does not apply to the s. 172 requirement.

I make no comment regarding what did or did not happen such that the OP was apparently able to accept a COFP without first returning the s 172 response.
My thoughts on the distinction between providing the date of birth to the fixed penalty clerk and providing the licence number which (if UK issued) incorporates the driver's date of birth, to the fixed penalty clerk is well known. However, what actually happened in this case seemingly is far less well known.
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.

NewJudge

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 97
  • Karma: +3/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Speeding and failure to notify
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2024, 07:09:59 pm »
Quote
Actual service is effected when it is delivered to the party's last known address, not when it is delivered to some other address but bearing the party's last known address, or delayed due to a postal strike but bearing Peter Gidden's last known address.

Of course, Andy. Thanks for the correction.

Quote
Technically, Gidden applies to the service of a NIP for the purposes of s. 1 RTOA 1988 (which itself has a rebuttable presuming provision), but it require some violence to the language of s. 172 to argue that s. 7 IA 1978 does not apply to the s. 172 requirement.

But does that particularly matter? There seems no doubt that the s172 notice was eventually properly served (albeit down to luck rather than judgement). Since there is no time limit of the service of the s172, surely the recipient still has a duty to respond (though of course he will have a defence if accused of not responding within 28 days). However, it seems it may be a moot point anyway because it seems that no proper response was made anyway and that is what he is accused of.

If he pleads Not Guilty to speeding on the basis that no NIP was served within 14 days, that still leaves him with the problem of the s172 charge which he seems to have no realistic chance of defending. Of course, pleading NG to speeding scuppers the possibility of the usual "deal". I still believe the deal is the way to go.

andy_foster

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 339
  • Karma: +5/-3
  • Location: Reading
    • View Profile
Re: Speeding and failure to notify
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2024, 09:20:00 pm »
There would seem to be 2 potential s. 172 defences. If the OP complied withe the substance of the legal requirements to accept the COFP - and with the level of detail provided by the OP regarding "the letter", this would be bound to fail, then I would argue that it would be an abuse of process to prosecute the OP for s. 172 - the purpose of s. 172 is to enable the driver to be identified and prosecuted for the speeding offence. Abuse of process would be an uphill struggle anyway, but in this case, just no. If the police "accepted" a verbal nomination over the phone, then no offence was committed, but if there was merely an administrative shortcut and the written response was still required, then not so much.

The other defence is so obvious that you'll be kicking yourself that you never saw it.

The OP will have been charged with failing to provide information between the issue date of "the letter" and the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of deemed service. If he takes along his witness and proves that the date of service was substantially later, the court will simply amend the information and convict.

So, he pleads not guilty and neglects to raise the issue of late service. He is convicted and appeals to the Crown Court. A Crown Court appeal is by way of re-hearing, so the court has no power to amend the charge, but (AFAIK) there is no restriction on adducing fresh evidence.
Simples.
I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.