Author Topic: UKPS PCN at Eaton House Coventry, on site for 34 seconds  (Read 1914 times)

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UKPS PCN at Eaton House Coventry, on site for 34 seconds
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Keeper received PCN from UKPS for "contravention of terms: Permit Required" at Eaton House near Coventry Railway Station, see https://imgur.com/a/aXDxnV7

Looking at date/time stamps on images the driver was on site for 34 seconds total.  In this time it appears they drove onto site, possibly dropped a passenger, performed a three point turn, and then left site.

Keeper has not responded to PCN. 

Also in images is sign from car park, and a view from the street entrance.

Appears to be a couple of points:
1) 34 seconds on site is nowhere near long enough to try and read and agree to the terms and conditions.
2) There are no entrance signs to site and the signs within site are not large.
3) PCN does not appear to comply with all aspects of PoFA section 9.

Next step (if any) for keeper?

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Re: UKPS PCN at Eaton House Coventry, on site for 34 seconds
« Reply #1 on: »
Tell them to go fornicate with themselves as that NtK is not PoFA compliant.

Easy one to defeat... as long as the unknown drivers identity is not revealed. There is no legal obligation on the known keeper (the recipient of the Notice to Keeper (NtK)) to reveal the identity of the unknown driver and no inference or assumptions can be made.

The NtK is not compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which means that if the unknown driver is not identified, they cannot transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the known keeper.

Use the following as your appeal. No need to embellish or remove anything from it:

Quote
I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. UKPS has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable. UKPS have no hope at IAS, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.

Note for the regulars: I know that the bit about no hope at IAS is not strictly true, but it serves its purpose.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: UKPS PCN at Eaton House Coventry, on site for 34 seconds
« Reply #2 on: »
Thank you, confirms what I suspected.

I'll report on the outcome.

Re: UKPS PCN at Eaton House Coventry, on site for 34 seconds
« Reply #3 on: »
They'll probably reject your appeal, because they can. There's a good reason the IAS will too, but UKPS would be foolish to take this one to court I'd suggest - even if it was PoFA compliant a 34 second 'contravention' would be hard for them to argue.

Re: UKPS PCN at Eaton House Coventry, on site for 34 seconds
« Reply #4 on: »
Check to see what evidence they have that the vehicle was at the location for 34 seconds. If they've only a single photo, they can't even even prove that it was there for more than 1 second.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: UKPS PCN at Eaton House Coventry, on site for 34 seconds
« Reply #5 on: »
Check to see what evidence they have that the vehicle was at the location for 34 seconds. If they've only a single photo, they can't even even prove that it was there for more than 1 second.
Entry and exit photos have timestamps from which I calculated the 34 seconds, the PCN itself does not mention the duration.

They also have (less clear) CCTV appearing to show passenger leaving vehicle, but timestamp of CCTV is not synchronised with the entry and exit photos - with the passenger appearing to disembark (in the CCTV) after the vehicle left the site (according to main photo).     

Re: UKPS PCN at Eaton House Coventry, on site for 34 seconds
« Reply #6 on: »
How out of sync are the times?

Re: UKPS PCN at Eaton House Coventry, on site for 34 seconds
« Reply #7 on: »
How out of sync are the times?
Still of passenger leaving vehicle is stamped around 15 seconds after the still of vehicle leaving the site.  Not so much really, but does make sequence of images questionable.

Re: UKPS PCN at Eaton House Coventry, on site for 34 seconds
« Reply #8 on: »
UKPS internal appeal rejected:

"Thank you for your appeal.
 
Having noted your comments, and checking the evidence gathered when issuing the Parking Charge, we are satisfied that the Parking Charge has been issued correctly and your appeal is rejected.
 
The basis of your appeal is factually incorrect, this parking charge has been issued in line with POFA 2012 and as a result, we will continue to hold the registered keeper liable for this charge unless we are informed that someone, other than the registered keeper was driving. The terms and conditions of this private land state that a permit must be held to park on site. This private land is not a dropping off or picking up area for commuters. Drivers are given a consideration period to read the signage and to make an informed decision as to remain on site or leave, if this consideration period is used in any other way than what it was meant for, the charge is issued.  As the vehicle does not hold a permit, the terms and conditions were breached.
 
Please be advised that all photographic evidence can be viewed by typing: pay.theukps.com in to your top address browser.
 
We now require payment of the parking charge to be made within 28 days of this letter."

Re: UKPS PCN at Eaton House Coventry, on site for 34 seconds
« Reply #9 on: »
It's an IPC company so an IAS appeal is likely to be an exercise in futility. It's up to you if you want to put the effort into one.

Either way, once the appeals process has been exhausted, ignore any reminders and all Debt Recovery Agent (DRA) letters. We don't need to see or know about those. They can be safely ignored. Never, ever communicate with a DRA as they are powerless except to try and scare low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree into paying up, the by then, inflated charge.

You wait to see if/when a Letter of Claim (LoC) is issued. When it is, come back and let us know so that the appropriate response can be provided.

Eventually a claim may be issued and we will provide the defence to use. The vast majority of these cases are either struck out before any hearing or are discontinued. Of the few that go to a hearing, most are won.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: UKPS PCN at Eaton House Coventry, on site for 34 seconds
« Reply #10 on: »
This is really interesting, I have also been involved in discussions with UKPS for doing a 80sec manoeuvre in this car park. I have gone through the appeals process which got rejected and today I have received a debt recovery plus letter requesting payment of £160.00 to be paid by the 22/11/2024. I have now contacted Debt Recovery Plus and informed them that I wish to have my day in court. After speaking to a solicitor and the citizen advice bureau I have decided to have my day in court.

Re: UKPS PCN at Eaton House Coventry, on site for 34 seconds
« Reply #11 on: »
They issue charges for whatever they think they can get away with. If you'd like any advice on your own case please start a new thread.

Re: UKPS PCN at Eaton House Coventry, on site for 34 seconds
« Reply #12 on: »
This is really interesting, I have also been involved in discussions with UKPS for doing a 80sec manoeuvre in this car park. I have gone through the appeals process which got rejected and today I have received a debt recovery plus letter requesting payment of £160.00 to be paid by the 22/11/2024. I have now contacted Debt Recovery Plus and informed them that I wish to have my day in court. After speaking to a solicitor and the citizen advice bureau I have decided to have my day in court.
Please start your own thread. You should never, ever, ever, EVER communicate with a useless debt collector, especially DRP. The CAB are useless when it comes to Parking Charge Notices (PCN) issued by unregulated private parking companies.

If you want bespoke advice, start your own thread.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

After ignoring numerous debt collection letters, Moorside Legal have got round to sending keeper a LETTER OF CLAIM dated 22/04/25.  Copy here https://imgur.com/a/gIrb2yn

Assuming now I do need to respond.  Obvious problems with the claim are lack of PoFA compliance and woeful signage on site.

Any help much appreciated.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2025, 04:55:56 pm by scoots »

Re: UKPS PCN at Eaton House Coventry, on site for 34 seconds
« Reply #14 on: »
Respond with the following by email to info@moorsidelegal.co.uk and CC in yourself:

Quote
Subject: Formal Response to Defective Letter of Claim – Your Ref: 4066166

Dear Sirs,

Re: Letter of Claim dated 22 April 2025. Your Ref: 4066166

I refer to your Letter of Claim.

I confirm that my address for service at this time is as follows, and I require you to erase any outdated or incorrect address information from your records to ensure compliance with your obligations under the UK GDPR and the Data Protection Act 2018:

[Insert Correct Address]

Please note that the alleged debt is entirely disputed, and any proceedings issued will be robustly defended.

Your Letter of Claim is defective and fails to comply with several fundamental requirements of the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (“PAPDC”), as follows:

• It does not clearly explain the legal basis for the alleged debt, nor does it distinguish whether the principal sum is being claimed as damages for breach of contract or as consideration for a purported parking contract, contrary to paragraph 3.1(a) of the PAPDC.
• It fails to enclose copies of key documents which the Claimant intends to rely upon, including the alleged contract (signage), the Notice to Driver or Notice to Keeper, and a proper statement of account setting out any payments, adjustments, or the composition of the debt, as required by paragraph 5.1 of the PAPDC.
• It includes a grossly inflated sum (£170) with no proper explanation or justification for the additional £70 added to the original parking charge. This is in breach of the requirement under paragraph 3.1(b) to set out how any such sums have been calculated. Furthermore, such practices have been condemned by Government as "extorting money from motorists."
• It makes misleading and premature threats of additional costs and fees before a claim has even been issued, which is contrary to the spirit and purpose of the PAPDC.

In addition, under the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims, I require specific answers to the following questions:

1. Does the additional £70 represent what you describe as a “Debt Recovery” fee? If so, is this figure net of or inclusive of VAT? If inclusive, please explain why I, as the alleged debtor, am being asked to cover your client’s VAT liability.
2. Regarding the principal sum of the alleged Parking Charge Notice (PCN), is this being claimed as damages for breach of contract, or pleaded as consideration for a purported contract? Kindly state this clearly and unequivocally.

I caution you against responding with vague or boilerplate language. I am fully aware of the serious implications. It appears that by simultaneously claiming that PCNs are exempt from VAT while inflating the "debt recovery" element, your client — with your assistance — may be facilitating evasion of VAT properly due to HMRC. Such conduct raises significant concerns regarding the legality and ethics of your client's practices.

I strongly advise your client to cease and desist. Should this matter proceed to litigation, you can be assured that these issues will be robustly raised before the court, along with appropriate submissions concerning unreasonable conduct under CPR 27.14(2)(g).

Yours faithfully,

[Your Name]
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain