Author Topic: UKPC – Overstay parking charge – McDonald's, Ardwick, Manchester  (Read 115 times)

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fafner

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On Saturday 7th December my vehicle was parked in McDonald's car park in Ardwick, Manchester. I, the registered keeper have received the attached parking charge notices through the post. I realise that it's late to be posting here, however I have been away.


I appreciate that the vehicle does appear to have overstayed. However, I contest that the signage is insufficient and unclear. I have since visited the location on foot and took the attached photographs that clearly show that there are no signs at the point of entry and two poorly placed signs above head height along the left-hand wall at the point after which a vehicle has entered the land. I contest that it would be unreasonable for a driver to drive safely and keep one's eyes on the road in front while at the same time be expected to attempt to turn one's head to read a sign that is above head height and would require a distraction from driving in order to read, especially given that pedestrians cross at this point. Furthermore, it would be impossible for a driver to be able to read the second sign along this wall which outlines the potential charges, as the writing is too small and it is too far away.


There are no signs at all at the point of entrance to the car park itself around the back of the building.


On this day and at the time of the vehicle visiting McDonald's, the rain was torrential so no signs could be seen clearly due to their poor placement and small writing. Furthermore, as can be seen from the CCTV image of the vehicle, there were what appear to be trolleys and crates in front of the exact location of the "90 Minutes Maximum Stay" sign. The driver claims that the sign simply was not visible due to a combination of the poor placement of the sign, obstruction and poor visibility due to the torrential rain.


Additionally, in the "final reminder" letter, I do not believe that a private company should be citing any potential concequences as a result of court action. Such things are for to a court decide and I believe that a private company to be citing such things could be viewed as misrepresentation.


Given all of the above, I do not believe that I should be liable to make the "requested" payment.


Here is the Google Maps location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/yeaKJsys6i6HtqqB8





























« Last Edit: January 06, 2025, 06:35:27 pm by fafner »

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b789

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Re: UKPC – Overstay parking charge – McDonald's, Ardwick, Manchester
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2025, 04:20:41 pm »
Welcome. UKPC signs are always rubbish. The Notice to Keeper (NtK) is PoFA compliant so the Keeper could be liable if the drivers identity is not provided.

However, should this go as far as a clam in the county court, as long as it is defended, they will eventually discontinue. Your choice is to either pay it if you feel it is a valid invoice or you can choose to fight it with our assistance and advice.

Any initial appeal is going to be rejected by UKPC. POPLA is also likely to reject but a few assessors have been known to agree that UKPCs signage is utterly rubbish and they have upheld appeals on that fact alone.

If POPLA reject the appeal, that is not the end of the process. A POPLA decision is not binding on the appellant. UKPC would try and harass the Keeper with useless debt collector letters. You must never, ever, respond to or communicate with a useless debt collector. They are not a party to the contract allegedly breached by the driver and cannot do anything, no matter how threatening they may seem. Ignore them.

In due course, you would receive a Letter of Claim (LoC) from their bulk litigator of choice, DCB Legal. After that, an N1SDT Claim Form from the CNBC will arrive. This must be responded to.

As long as the claim is defended (with our assistance) they will eventually discontinue and that will be the end of the matter.

Are you up for the fight?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

fafner

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Re: UKPC – Overstay parking charge – McDonald's, Ardwick, Manchester
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2025, 06:24:46 pm »
I definitely am and I know better than most how to deal (and not deal) with debt collectors - I used to work for one of the biggest a long time ago so I know only too well what they can/can't do. I've also taken on far bigger fish than UKPC and DCB Legal. I don't take any messing from people like this

b789

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Re: UKPC – Overstay parking charge – McDonald's, Ardwick, Manchester
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2025, 11:06:34 am »
So, do you want to bother with the operator and the POPLA appeals process or simply wait for the inevitable claim which will eventually be discontinued?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

fafner

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Re: UKPC – Overstay parking charge – McDonald's, Ardwick, Manchester
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2025, 01:28:55 pm »
The way I would have dealt with this typically is to basically stuff their process and deal with them directly, not recognising their 'appeal' system and bypassing it. However, as the usual advice is to just go through the processs and as I have some personal stuff going on in my life right now and so am not firing on as many cylinders as I would be ordinarily, I figured it probably better to just go through the motions and get the help from you guys along the way. As the deadline was upon me I've just sent in my stance to UKPC's 'appeal' system using the info and photos I laid out above

b789

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Re: UKPC – Overstay parking charge – McDonald's, Ardwick, Manchester
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2025, 01:32:10 pm »
Can you please show us the wording of your UKPC appeal?

I can guarantee that whatever was in it, it will be rejected.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

fafner

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Re: UKPC – Overstay parking charge – McDonald's, Ardwick, Manchester
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2025, 10:36:17 pm »
Sorry for the late reply. I sent them what I wrote in the original post

b789

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Re: UKPC – Overstay parking charge – McDonald's, Ardwick, Manchester
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2025, 01:19:16 pm »
So, they are going to reject any appeal and provide a POPLA code for a secondary appeal to the not so independent POPLA. You will have to convince POPLA that the signage is inadequate and that the Notice to Keeper (NtK) is deficient or that their procedure was deficient.

Whilst their NtK was PoFA compliant, there is a glaring deficiency in their process which has invalidate any Keeper liability...

Under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA), a Keeper cannot be held liable unless the parking operator fully complies with the statutory requirements.

Key Dates:

NtK Issue Date: Tuesday, 10th December 2024

Deemed Delivery Date: Thursday, 12th December 2024 (two working days later, as per PoFA 9(6) and PPSCoP 8.1.2)

PoFA Paragraph 9(2)(f) states that the Keeper can only be held liable if the charge remains unpaid after 28 full days have elapsed from the presumed delivery date of the NtK.

Since the NtK was deemed delivered on Thursday 12th December 2024, the 28-day period runs:

Start Date: Friday 13th December 2024

End Date: Thursday 9th January 2025

Therefore the Keeper cannot be liable under PoFA before Thursday 9th January 2025.

UKPC issued a Final Reminder on Tuesday 24th December 2024, stating:

"As 14 days have lapsed, you, the Registered Keeper of the vehicle, can be made liable for the Parking Charge."

This is completely incorrect and does not comply with PoFA which makes UKPCs actions procedurally incorrect.

UKPC have unlawfully claimed the Keeper was liable on Tuesday 24th December 2024. In reality, the Keeper could not be held liable until Thursday 9th January 2025.

The 28-day period had not even reached halfway when UKPC made this false claim. This is a procedural failure and a clear misrepresentation of PoFA.

Another issue is UKPC's false deadline for debt recovery...

Final Reminder Issue Date: Tuesday 24th December 2024. The Final Reminder states that:

"If full payment is not made within 14 days, or if we are not provided with the driver’s details, the charge will be passed to debt recovery and a debt recovery fee of £70 will be added."

14 days from 24th December 2024 is Friday 7th January 2025. However, the Keeper cannot legally become liable under PoFA until Sunday 9th January 2025.

This means that UKPC is threatening debt recovery action and additional charges before the Keeper can even be held liable for the charge. This is an undeniable procedural failure of the PPSCoP and a misrepresentation of PoFA.

Just to make is absolutely clear why this is a major procedural breach... PoFA Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(2)(f) clearly states that the Keeper cannot be held liable until 28 days after the presumed delivery of the NtK. The Final Reminder deadline given by UKPC: Tuesday 7th January 2025. This means UKPC is threatening to escalate the charge and add a fake £70 fee two days before they can even hold the Keeper liable.

This is a clear case of UKPC falsely representing the Keeper’s liability in an attempt to pressure payment early. It is misleading, unfair, and non-compliant with both PoFA and fair trading practices.

What UKPC have done wrong is that they should not have issued a Final Reminder stating that the Keeper is already liable on 24th December 2024. They should not have set a 14-day deadline from 24th December 2024, as it expired before the Keeper could legally be held liable and they should not have threatened debt recovery escalation before 9th January 2025.

So, when the appeal rejection comes through, you will have to send UKPC a formal complaint about their procedural failures and you will also be able to raise these in your POPLA appeal.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2025, 01:23:51 pm by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain