Author Topic: UKPC NTK - No Permit - Hook Rise, Chessington  (Read 2556 times)

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UKPC NTK - No Permit - Hook Rise, Chessington
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Hi all,

After returning from overseas to find a stash of letters and feeling rather cheesed off so thought I'd turn to the gurus on here after I was so wonderfully helped by the lovely people from Pepipoo, to get my mother's vehicle out of a Heathrow parking charge.

Explanation / Context

NOTE: I've tried to keep it brief but I'm also unsure what may or may not be relevant, so thought it best to stick all the facts in!

I am the keeper. The driver went to this location on 26th March, somewhere they had been to before and parked where they have always parked in the past (it's next to a climbing centre). N.B. The restrictions are clearly new as the climbing centre had a sign stating when it was safe to park and I can see the sign has been modified with some tape to reflect the changes.

The driver parked there and then left later that evening.

I went overseas on the morning of the 29th of March (provable) and did not return until the 2nd of May. Not sure if relevant but I was going to return on the 18th of April but had to stay longer as my father suddenly became unwell while overseas and needed cardiac procedures to be carried out.

I returned to the following notices somewhere in a mountain of mail (attached in a pdf)

28th March: UKPC NTK Parked in a permit area
11th April: UKPC NTK Final Reminder
24th April: Debt Collection Agency Letter
10 May: Debt Collection Agency letter

Car Park Signage

I have attached photos of the car park signage. I'm not sure exactly which bay the driver parked in but you can see from the signs that they may not be within visibility or regulatory regulations (you will know better than me!). There's one more sign I can try and add a photo of for location, it was on a gate that was open so that it wasn't really visible (it's the actual notice in the last photo).

At this point I, the keeper, have made no contact with either UKPC or the Debt Collection Agency - I thought this was best until I heard from you guys. What should I do next?

Cheers!

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« Last Edit: May 19, 2024, 07:58:17 pm by Keeper »

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Re: UKPC NTK - No Permit - Hook Rise, Chessington
« Reply #1 on: »
First things first, I'm very sorry to hear about your father, I hope all is well.

Before we move onto the facts of the parking incident itself, some process. The fact you were abroad for the times stated is unlikely to have much bearing on the case, other than the fact you are now beyond UKPC's arbitrary appeal window - this means they won't consider any appeals, nor provide a POPLA code, but this is not the end of the world. Ignore the debt collectors, you should not engage with them at all. File but ignore their letters. You need to keep an eye out for anything that is marked as a 'Letter Before Claim' or similar, which will come from UKPC's solicitors/legal firm. UKPC do tend to issue a lot of claims - another thing they (or more accurately their chosen law firm DCB Legal) tend to do, if the matter is defended, is discontinue the claims before they ever reach a courtroom. This thread from the MSE Forum makes for interesting reading: DCB LEGAL RECORD OF PRIVATE PARKING COURT CLAIM DISCONTINUATIONS. Usual caveat that past performance is not always a reliable indicator of future conduct, but you'll see there's been a definite pattern.

Now, onto the incident. You mention that it is your mother's vehicle, but that you are the registered keeper?

Car Park Signage

I have attached photos of the car park signage. I'm not sure exactly which bay the driver parked in but you can see from the signs that they may not be within visibility or regulatory regulations (you will know better than me!). There's one more sign I can try and add a photo of for location, it was on a gate that was open so that it wasn't really visible (it's the actual notice in the last photo).
That signage looks shoddy for a number of reasons - is there a sign at the entrance? The £100 charge isn't particularly prominent for a start, such a charge should be clearly brought to the motorists attention. The placement also looks poor, the signage should be 'there to be seen' - this is compounded if there is no sign at the entrance. There's also a potential argument that the signage is forbidding, as it doesn't make an offer to those without a permit to park on certain terms.

Re: UKPC NTK - No Permit - Hook Rise, Chessington
« Reply #2 on: »
First things first, I'm very sorry to hear about your father, I hope all is well.

Before we move onto the facts of the parking incident itself, some process. The fact you were abroad for the times stated is unlikely to have much bearing on the case, other than the fact you are now beyond UKPC's arbitrary appeal window - this means they won't consider any appeals, nor provide a POPLA code, but this is not the end of the world. Ignore the debt collectors, you should not engage with them at all. File but ignore their letters. You need to keep an eye out for anything that is marked as a 'Letter Before Claim' or similar, which will come from UKPC's solicitors/legal firm. UKPC do tend to issue a lot of claims - another thing they (or more accurately their chosen law firm DCB Legal) tend to do, if the matter is defended, is discontinue the claims before they ever reach a courtroom. This thread from the MSE Forum makes for interesting reading: DCB LEGAL RECORD OF PRIVATE PARKING COURT CLAIM DISCONTINUATIONS. Usual caveat that past performance is not always a reliable indicator of future conduct, but you'll see there's been a definite pattern.

Now, onto the incident. You mention that it is your mother's vehicle, but that you are the registered keeper?

Car Park Signage

I have attached photos of the car park signage. I'm not sure exactly which bay the driver parked in but you can see from the signs that they may not be within visibility or regulatory regulations (you will know better than me!). There's one more sign I can try and add a photo of for location, it was on a gate that was open so that it wasn't really visible (it's the actual notice in the last photo).
That signage looks shoddy for a number of reasons - is there a sign at the entrance? The £100 charge isn't particularly prominent for a start, such a charge should be clearly brought to the motorists attention. The placement also looks poor, the signage should be 'there to be seen' - this is compounded if there is no sign at the entrance. There's also a potential argument that the signage is forbidding, as it doesn't make an offer to those without a permit to park on certain terms.

Many thanks, my father is now well and returned to the UK yesterday - he got very lucky with early treatment. Appreciate it!

In response:

1. Apologies, my poor punctuation. Previous incident, resolved years ago by helpful members of another forum, was my mother's car. I didn't know about this place at the time! This case relates to my vehicle.

2. Here is a street view of the space. You'll see the sign by White Spider on the left, since the driver was last there and since the street view car went around, the days and times have been taped over, so indeed one without a permit is simply forbidden to park in those spaces immediately past the grey gate at any time, under any terms. The sign you can read in my photos is the one (presumably updated since street view) on the left hand gate.

3. Really interesting info, thanks. Typically would a claim be for the amount on the charge plus some sort of admin fee? Seeing as if I were to want to pay now, it would be £170, bearing in mind that it's not possible to claim costs in the small claims court, it would seem I have nothing to lose, as long as I don't miss the initial pre-claim correspondence.

4. Understood on not corresponding with debt collection agency. Is there any sense in writing to UKPC explaining that I was out of the country and that I wish to contest the charge? Whilst I understand the answer is probably no, my question is more if this may help me in the future if I have taken this step.


Many thanks again

Re: UKPC NTK - No Permit - Hook Rise, Chessington
« Reply #3 on: »
One point that may come in useful if/when this progresses to a claim, which is highly likely but will not result in anything other than a discontinuation before a hearing if you follow all the advice. You say the driver visited the location on 26th March and it was a location they had visited previously but had no or different restrictions back then. Was the previous visit more or less than 4 months previously?

If the last previous visit was less than 4 months previously, were there any prominent signs indicating that the terms of parking had been changed? If so, they have breached their own ATA, the BPA, Code of Practice rule 19.10 which states:

Quote
Material change - notices

Where there is any material change to any pre-existing terms and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a motorist entering controlled land that is or has been open for public parking, you must place additional (temporary) notices at the site entrance for a period of not less than 4 months from the date of the change making it clear that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who might be familiar with the old terms do not inadvertently incur parking charges.

Whilst some may advocate trying to appeal to the better nature of the customer service ethos of UKPC and try and mitigate the circumstance so that they reset the clock and let you appeal, it is just going to be a waste of time and effort. There are some rules in the CoP that could be argued that they should re-issue the PCN and start the clock but, to be honest, they won’t.

Whilst we haven’t yet seen both sides of the NtK (suitably redacted but with all dates showing) there is likely to be another flaw or two in it that will force them to make the claim under PoFA against the keeper. However, there is now an updated item to add to any robust defence to request that the claim is dismissed at the allocation stage as they will be in breach of several CPRs and PoFA. We will cross that bridge if and when we need to. For now, the keeper must not reveal the identity of the driver.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2024, 01:41:17 am by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: UKPC NTK - No Permit - Hook Rise, Chessington
« Reply #4 on: »
One point that may come in useful if/when this progresses to a claim, which is highly likely but will not result in anything other than a discontinuation before a hearing if you follow all the advice. You say the driver visited the location on 26th March and it was a location they had visited previously but had no or different restrictions back then. Was the previous visit more or less than 4 months previously?

If the last previous visit was less than 4 months previously, were there any prominent signs indicating that the terms of parking had been changed? If so, they have breached their own ATA, the BPA, Code of Practice rule 19.10 which states:

Quote
Material change - notices

Where there is any material change to any pre-existing terms and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a motorist entering controlled land that is or has been open for public parking, you must place additional (temporary) notices at the site entrance for a period of not less than 4 months from the date of the change making it clear that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who might be familiar with the old terms do not inadvertently incur parking charges.

Whilst some may advocate trying to appeal to the better nature of the customer service ethos of UKPC and try and mitigate the circumstance so that they reset the clock and let you appeal, it is just going to be a waste of time and effort. There are some rules in the CoP that could be argued that they should re-issue the PCN and start the clock but, to be honest, they won’t.

Whilst we haven’t yet seen both sides of the NtK (suitably redacted but with all dates showing) there is likely to be another flaw or two in it that will force them to make the claim under PoFA against the keeper. However, there is now an updated item to add to any robust defence to request that the claim is dismissed at the allocation stage as they will be in breach of several CPRs and PoFA. We will cross that bridge if and when we need to. For now, the keeper must not reveal the identity of the driver.

1. Honestly not sure when signage changed - driver's last visit was probably in the last 4 months but the driver may have used their small private car park owned by the climbing centre - the area where the notice has been served for is outside the climbing centre but formerly okay to park there during certain hours. I will call the climbing centre to find out when rules changed...

2. Full NTK with both sides attached to original post

3. I hear you on an appeal - thanks for this info!

Re: UKPC NTK - No Permit - Hook Rise, Chessington
« Reply #5 on: »
A Quick Look at the NtK shows PoFA failure to specify any “period of parking” in breach of 9(2)(a) and (c ). Also, the time stamp in the photo on the NtK appears to have been cropped which is a failure of BPA CoP 21.5a.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: UKPC NTK - No Permit - Hook Rise, Chessington
« Reply #6 on: »
A Quick Look at the NtK shows PoFA failure to specify any “period of parking” in breach of 9(2)(a) and (c ). Also, the time stamp in the photo on the NtK appears to have been cropped which is a failure of BPA CoP 21.5a.

Many thanks for checking. Does this mean that your voice echoes the advice above to do nothing? Or should I send something to UKPC saying highlighting non-compliance with PoFA?

Re: UKPC NTK - No Permit - Hook Rise, Chessington
« Reply #7 on: »
There are a couple of things you should be doing for now. Plan A is always the easiest to get these cancelled is to get the landowner to tell their agent to cancel it. You can continue with Plan A right up until the commencement of Plan D.

What did the business you were visiting at the time have to say about their patrons being invoiced for £100 for the privilege?

What was the date the original NtK was issued? Was it 27th March or earlier?

Can you evidence that you were out of the country between the dates of the first NtK (plus 2 working days) and the 28th day after that? If so, you can complain (not appeal) to UKPC and request that they reissue the original NtK and restart the clock, thus allowing you to appeal. There is clause in the latest edition of the BPA CoP 23.8 that states they must reissue and restart the process if you can evidence that you (the addressee) could not have appealed within the original 28 day window. If you can and they don’t, a complaint to the BPA is in order.

Apart from the above, all you can do for now is continue with Plan A and wait or the ridiculous but useless debt collector letters. If, or more likely when, you receive a real Letter of Claim, either directly from UKPC themselves or DCB Legal (not anything from DCB Ltd), then come back for advice on how to proceed.

A claim is the start of Plan D and is easily dealt with and will end up with an eventual discontinuation.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: UKPC NTK - No Permit - Hook Rise, Chessington
« Reply #8 on: »
@b789, why do you think the term 'period of parking' cannot be construed as a moment in time when the nature of the contravention does not require proof of the breach to be anything other than the vehicle was in situ. From the PPC's perspective 1 second is the same as 30 minutes, but from the keeper's perspective a consideration period would apply.


And for the OP, what was the driver up to on the site? Your account does not state that the driver was actually a patron of any business on the site...'the area where the notice has been served for is outside the climbing centre but formerly okay to park there during certain hours.'

Before we possibly go off in the wrong direction, let's clarify key issues pl.

Re: UKPC NTK - No Permit - Hook Rise, Chessington
« Reply #9 on: »
@b789, why do you think the term 'period of parking' cannot be construed as a moment in time when the nature of the contravention does not require proof of the breach to be anything other than the vehicle was in situ. From the PPC's perspective 1 second is the same as 30 minutes, but from the keeper's perspective a consideration period would apply.
The “period of parking” argument has been won at POPLA and at court several times. Unfortunately, I don’t have those POPLA appeals to hand at the moment.

Whilst not yet enacted, the incoming statutory Code of Practice defines "2.24 parking period" as:

"the length of time that a vehicle has been parked, i.e. left stationary otherwise than in the course of driving, after any relevant consideration period has expired (excluding instances where the driver has stopped to enable passengers to leave or enter the vehicle). This is not the period between a vehicle being recorded as entering and departing controlled land."

The following has been used successfully in the past:

“POFA paragraph 9(2)(a) says that a NTK must specify 'the period of parking to which the notice relates' The operator's purported NTK does not specify the period of parking to which the NTK relates as a period has a start and an end and the operator's purported NTK specifies only a single point in time.  This failure alone renders the charge unenforceable against the keeper.”

The above, believe it or not, was for an IAS appeal and the following definition is what won it:

“Paragraph 16.1 of the IPC's Code of Practice says 'Where a Parking Charge is issued Notices must comply with the applicable requirements as set out in Schedule 3'.  Schedule 3 echoes the POFA requirement  for a period of parking to be specified in the NTK and refers to an example NTK in Appendix 5 where the following form of words is prescribed:

Period of Parking:
From: (Date and Time of entry)
To: (Date and Time of Exit)”

When I have time, I will try and find more cases. However, “period of parking” is a valid argument if presented properly as it is one more point to use in any appeal or defence to show non-compliance with the requirements of PoFA. Hence, the OP should not throw away the no keeper liability option as an appeal or defence argument by revealing the identity of the driver.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: UKPC NTK - No Permit - Hook Rise, Chessington
« Reply #10 on: »
Thanks.

To what breach do these examples refer e.g. parking for longer than permitted or simply parking in a manner where an instant breach occurs, for example not in a bay or without displaying a permit?

And does this argument always win or only sometimes. I would certainly appreciate any judgments on this point.

OP, pl answer the question about what the driver did e.g. park up as a patron or simply park and disappear off site etc.

Re: UKPC NTK - No Permit - Hook Rise, Chessington
« Reply #11 on: »
When I have enough spare time, I will go back through my records and try to find the relevant information. However, you will appreciate that county court judgments orders do not specify the judges reasoning. Only if either the claimant or defendant wishes to pay a small fortune for the transcript, there is none. The cases that involved court decisions on "period of parking" are buried deep within the MSE forum and I'm sure you are well aware that their search engine is woeful.

PoFA only mentions "period of parking". A "period" can only be from a fixed time, to a fixed time. Otherwise it is simply a  "time of parking" PoFA does not say "time of parking".
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: UKPC NTK - No Permit - Hook Rise, Chessington
« Reply #12 on: »
There are a couple of things you should be doing for now. Plan A is always the easiest to get these cancelled is to get the landowner to tell their agent to cancel it. You can continue with Plan A right up until the commencement of Plan D.

What did the business you were visiting at the time have to say about their patrons being invoiced for £100 for the privilege?

Appreciate the advice! The business that the driver was visiting at the time has since said that there's little that they can do as the parking is managed by the owners of the estate, not the climbing centre itself which is the business that the driver was a patron of. They did say however that they are away of other patrons successfully arguing that the signage was inadequate. Do you think it's worth me trying to get in touch with the owner of the estate / management company?

Quote
What was the date the original NtK was issued? Was it 27th March or earlier?

Issued on 28th March for an alleged offence that occurred on 26th.

Quote
Can you evidence that you were out of the country between the dates of the first NtK (plus 2 working days) and the 28th day after that? If so, you can complain (not appeal) to UKPC and request that they reissue the original NtK and restart the clock, thus allowing you to appeal. There is clause in the latest edition of the BPA CoP 23.8 that states they must reissue and restart the process if you can evidence that you (the addressee) could not have appealed within the original 28 day window. If you can and they don’t, a complaint to the BPA is in order.

Yes, I can. I have flight bookings / passport stamps.

Quote
Apart from the above, all you can do for now is continue with Plan A and wait or the ridiculous but useless debt collector letters. If, or more likely when, you receive a real Letter of Claim, either directly from UKPC themselves or DCB Legal (not anything from DCB Ltd), then come back for advice on how to proceed.

A claim is the start of Plan D and is easily dealt with and will end up with an eventual discontinuation.

Thanks for the info above. So far I haven't seen anything in the mail, will check again on Monday.

Thanks.

To what breach do these examples refer e.g. parking for longer than permitted or simply parking in a manner where an instant breach occurs, for example not in a bay or without displaying a permit?

And does this argument always win or only sometimes. I would certainly appreciate any judgments on this point.

OP, pl answer the question about what the driver did e.g. park up as a patron or simply park and disappear off site etc.

Thanks, see response above. The driver parked up and indeed paid for onsite services (climbing centre) before departing.

Re: UKPC NTK - No Permit - Hook Rise, Chessington
« Reply #13 on: »
Of course you should try and find out who the landowner or the management company they use to manage the estate. They are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents and they can easily ask the PPC to cancel the PCN. A complaint to the business you were a patron of asking them to intervene on your behalf with the estate management would be useful if only to let the management company and the business how these unregulated private parking companies are damaging their business.

Quote
Can you evidence that you were out of the country between the dates of the first NtK (plus 2 working days) and the 28th day after that? If so, you can complain (not appeal) to UKPC and request that they reissue the original NtK and restart the clock, thus allowing you to appeal. There is clause in the latest edition of the BPA CoP 23.8 that states they must reissue and restart the process if you can evidence that you (the addressee) could not have appealed within the original 28 day window. If you can and they don’t, a complaint to the BPA is in order.

Quote
I have flight bookings / passport stamps.

Then I've already told you what to do.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: UKPC NTK - No Permit - Hook Rise, Chessington
« Reply #14 on: »
Of course you should try and find out who the landowner or the management company they use to manage the estate. They are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents and they can easily ask the PPC to cancel the PCN. A complaint to the business you were a patron of asking them to intervene on your behalf with the estate management would be useful if only to let the management company and the business how these unregulated private parking companies are damaging their business.

Quote
Can you evidence that you were out of the country between the dates of the first NtK (plus 2 working days) and the 28th day after that? If so, you can complain (not appeal) to UKPC and request that they reissue the original NtK and restart the clock, thus allowing you to appeal. There is clause in the latest edition of the BPA CoP 23.8 that states they must reissue and restart the process if you can evidence that you (the addressee) could not have appealed within the original 28 day window. If you can and they don’t, a complaint to the BPA is in order.

Quote
I have flight bookings / passport stamps.

Then I've already told you what to do.

Thanks so much

I will continue to pursue Plan A and in the meantime I (or rather, chat GPT) have drafted the following message to UKPC.

Quote
Customer Services Department
UK Parking Control Limited
The Apex
2 Sheriffs Orchard
Coventry
CV1 3PP

Subject: Appeal Against Parking Charge Notice [PCN Reference Number]

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to formally appeal the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) referenced above, which I received as the registered keeper of the vehicle in question. Due to exceptional circumstances, I was unable to appeal within the initial 28-day period stipulated.

I was out of the country for the entirety of the 28-day appeal period, as evidenced by the attached flight tickets. According to the British Parking Association's (BPA) Code of Practice for Operators, specifically Section 23.8, operators are required to have a process for considering appeals received outside the normal 28-day period if the appellant can provide evidence of exceptional circumstances.

The relevant section of the BPA Code of Practice states:

“You must have a process for considering appeals received outside of the normal 28-day period allowed for lodging an appeal where the appellant provides evidence of exceptional circumstances for the appeal not being lodged within the normal timeframes – where the addressee only discovers and can show that a parking charge notice has been issued in their name after the 28-day period, the period must restart and any enforcement, excluding court action, must be paused.”


Given that I was out of the country and only became aware of the PCN upon my return, I am requesting that the appeal period be restarted in accordance with the BPA Code of Practice. I also request that any enforcement actions, excluding court action, be paused immediately.

I look forward to your prompt response confirming the extension of the appeal period and the suspension of enforcement actions. If you require any further information or documentation, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.

Yours faithfully,

[Your Name]

Attachments:

Copies of flight tickets confirming my absence from the country during the appeal period

Assuming that no one points out any glaring errors with this I will send it off tomorrow and then report back

Thanks once again!