Author Topic: SABA demanding driver details after appeal – Paid at machine – Parking PCN from Croydon University Hospital  (Read 199 times)

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ikina

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My vehicle was parked at Croydon University Hospital using their SABA parking bays. The SABA parking app was down. The ticket machines were also broken apart from the one further away which they recommended using. A ticket was purchased using their suggested machine.
For some reason, this ticket wasn't seen clearly by the warden and a PCN was posted to me a few days later.
I appealed this SABA PCN and explained the app was down(again!), and I sent photos of the ticket and broken ticket machine on 21/11/2024. I sent it as a registered keeper and declined to say if I was driving. The appeal forces you to say if you were the driver or not - so I said no.

I have received this response from them pressuring/bullying me into supplying the driver's name.
"Thank you for your online appeal submission.
Please be advised, we can only process an appeal from the driver on the day.
Please provide the drivers full name and serviceable address within seven (7) days of the date of this email. Alternatively, please have the driver appeal to appeals@paymyparkingcharge.com. Within this email they will need to confirm their full name, serviceable address and confirmation that they were the driver on the day."

Help and advice on how to push back on this would be greatly appreciated, please.

Thank you for your help. Its greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2024, 01:23:40 pm by DWMB2 »

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RichardW

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There are at least 2 recent threads about this. You can ignore, or write back and point out there's no obligation to name driver and you won't be doing so. They will almost certainly refuse any appeal either way. Have you contacted the hospital to get them to have it cancelled?

b789

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What have PALS said about this when you approached them to get it cancelled? You have tried PALS have't you?

Was this a windscreen Notice to Driver (NtD) or a postal Notice to Keeper (NtK)?

SABA are being outright mendacious when they say they can only accept an appeal from the driver on the day.

Please have a read of the thread and show us the PCN:

READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide

In the meantime, get in touch with the hospital PALS and ask them to get it cancelled.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

mickR

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and edit the first post to remove any ref to who was driving
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ikina

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@RichardW - they are not mine, I searched before posting and never saw anywhere the drivers had already paid for a ticket.

@b789 Ive not tried PALS - didn't know you could do that. It was posted to me. Nothing was left on my windscreen on the day. The notice is now attached.

@mickR - sorry which post, Im not following?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2024, 01:16:44 pm by ikina »

mickR

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DWMB2

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Your attachment hasn't worked. Have you read the "READ THIS FIRST" thread b789 suggested, and followed the instructions in there?

ikina

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It doesnt allow me to change my initial post @mickR

DWMB2

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Send me a direct message with what you want it changing to and I'll edit it.

RichardW

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Sorry, I was not clear, I meant a couple of recent threads where the parking co was fishing for the driver's name after initial appeal. Their PCN doesn't appear to be POFA compliant (no invitation to pay or name the driver).

b789

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Their PCN doesn't appear to be POFA compliant (no invitation to pay or name the driver).

Not quite. They do state in their Notice to Keeper (NtK): "If you were not the driver at the time, you should tell us the name and current postal address of the driver and pass this notice to them." However they have not complied with PoFA paragraphs 9(2)(a) and 9(2)(e)(i).

SABA will certainly not concede this point but POPLA may, as long as you can persuasively show them why. PoFA 9(2)(a) states:

Quote
The notice must

(a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

The NtK fails to specify a “period of parking,” instead referencing a single timestamp, which does not satisfy Paragraph 9(2)(a).

Also, PoFA 9(2)(e)(i) states:

Quote
The notice must

(e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper

(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges;

Conveniently, the POPLA assessors usually ignore the last three words of para 9(2)(e). After all, they have to pander to their paymasters. However, if it were to ever get as far as a hearing in the county court, it would firm part of a valid defence that the Keeper cannot be liable for the charge.

For now, I suggest responding to SABA with the following derisory email:

Quote
Dear SABA,

Thank you for your email, which demonstrates either a remarkable misunderstanding of the law or a deliberate attempt at deceit. Your claim that “only the driver can appeal” is both mendacious and blatantly false.

If you genuinely believe I will fall for such a false statement, I strongly suggest that someone in your organisation with at least a vague understanding of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) reviews this matter immediately. I advise you to involve a responsible adult to ensure that SABA's next steps don’t lead you further into the realm of legal absurdity.

Allow me to clarify, for your benefit:

The Keeper is Entitled to Appeal:

As the Notice to Keeper (NtK) was addressed to me as the registered keeper of the vehicle, I am entitled to respond and appeal. Your baseless demand that only the driver can appeal is a transparent attempt to intimidate me into naming the driver, which I am under no legal obligation to do as you are simply an unregulated private parking company.

Non-Compliance with PoFA:

Your NtK lacks the mandatory "invitation" for the keeper to pay as required by Paragraph 9(2)(e).
The NtK also fails to specify a “period of parking”, instead referencing a single timestamp, which does not satisfy Paragraph 9(2)(a).

Evidence of Payment Already Provided:

I have submitted irrefutable evidence that a valid ticket was purchased using your suggested machine. The fact that your systems, or your warden’s observations, failed to reflect this is not my concern.

Should you reject this appeal and issue a POPLA code, please be aware that this will only serve to prove your intellectual malnourishment as it will be your first step toward wasting money on an independent assessor. Furthermore, should this matter ever reach a county court hearing, you will have the unenviable task of justifying your legally and factually deficient claims to a judge. At that stage, I trust the court will not look kindly upon your mendacious behaviour, nor will it consider your actions “reasonable” under any measure.

I suggest you reconsider your approach, as pursuing this matter further risks not only your finances but also exposing your practices to judicial scrutiny. As for your demand for the driver’s details, I refer you to the succinct and entirely appropriate response given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram (1971).

Yours faithfully,

[Your Name]
Registered Keeper
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

H C Andersen

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With respect, PoFA does not require the creditor to offer nor grant a keeper the right to appeal against the parking charge. Para. 9 is quite clear.

But what PoFA does state is that a NTK must:

...
g)inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;

There is no mandatory appeal under PoFA(something which long-overdue mandatory regs would resolve).

However, it is understood by government, approved operators and their ATAs that the latter would put in place a (now single) code of practice, compliance with which is a condition of operators accessing DVLA keeper data. It is this Code  which requires creditors to offer 'arrangements for resolving disputes' and states that the keeper may appeal to the creditor, page 38 refers: https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/NEW%20Redesigned%20Documents/sectorsingleCodeofPractice.pdf

POPLA must consider this matter and IMO find for the keeper because of the failure of the creditor to comply with this most important part of the code.
 
So, how should you play this?

At present SABA hold the cards and would continue to do so until you are in possession of a POPLA code*. Therefore, I would simply respond by saying that you do not intend to name the driver, that you require SABA to consider your appeal as submitted and if rejected to issue a POPLA code.

*- in the little snippet of their response I don't see that your failure to comply within their tome frame would lead to them issuing a POPLA code, but if it does then post their complete reply because perhaps your best tactic would be simply to ignore.
 

mickR

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With respect, PoFA does not require the creditor to offer nor grant a keeper the right to appeal against the parking charge. Para. 9 is quite clear.
I'm not sure anyone said they did.
@b789 said...
Quote
Your NtK lacks the mandatory "invitation" for the keeper to pay as required by Paragraph 9(2)(e).
not "appeal"

b789

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I'm not disputing @H C Andersen's point. I'm simply suggesting having a bit if fun at SABA's ridiculous attempt to tell the Keeper that only the driver can appeal. We all know that SABA will never accept the appeal anyway.

When it comes to PoFA, there will be the usual uphill battle to get some moronic POPLA assessor to understand the finer points of PoFA. A bridge to cross when we reach it.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

H C Andersen

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@mickR..

The suggested draft:

'The Keeper is Entitled to Appeal:

As the Notice to Keeper (NtK) was addressed to me as the registered keeper of the vehicle, I am entitled to respond and appeal. '