Author Topic: Private PCN - Parking Control Managment UK LTD (PCM) - Dartford  (Read 1009 times)

0 Members and 225 Guests are viewing this topic.

I live in a flat with private parking with designated car park spaces for each flat. I stupidly forgot to display my ticket this week and have received a PCN for not displaying a valid permit.

Do I have any leg to stand on to make an appeal? It's also my first offence if that matters.

They want £60 within 14 days which is just a joke  >:(

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2024, 01:44:44 pm by simon_11 »

Share on Bluesky Share on Facebook


Re: Private PCN - Parking Control Managment UK LTD (PCM)
« Reply #1 on: »
To help us to help you, please read the following thread carefully, and amend your post to reflect the guidance in there, and to provide as much of the information asked for as you are able to: READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide.

In addition, as this is a residential case, please consult your lease, and show us exactly what it says about parking. All mentions of this (and exact wording for each) will be important.

Re: Private PCN - Parking Control Managment UK LTD (PCM) - Dartford
« Reply #2 on: »
Why do you think it is an "offence"? Have you broken the law?

What exactly does your AST/lease say about parking at your property? What it doesn't say is equally important.

For example, if your AST/lease mentions that you must display a permit and are liable to pay speculative invoices from an unregulated private parking company contracted by the landowner or their agent, then you may be bang to rights. Then again, if there is no mention of any retirement to display a permit or mention of you being liable pay a third party's speculative invoices, you have a valid defence. Maybe you only display a permit as a courtesy.

If your lease allows you to park with no other restrictions regarding third parties, you should be asking why are your rights being fettered. Your AST/lease cannot simply be amended by anyone, including the landlord or their agents. There is a whole legal process that has to be strictly adhered to which you can read up on in the Landlord and Tenants Act 1987, section 37 5(a) or (b) applies.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Private PCN - Parking Control Managment UK LTD (PCM) - Dartford
« Reply #3 on: »
Won't let me edit the original post - I've attached an image of the parking terms and PCN.

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Re: Private PCN - Parking Control Managment UK LTD (PCM) - Dartford
« Reply #4 on: »
@simon_11, what makes you think that just because a management company contacts an unregulated private parking company to manage the car park and put up some signs and order you to display a permit, that any of that can override your rights under your AST/lease?

The wording (or lack of it) in your AST/lease will define your liability or not for the PCN. You have not yet told us about it.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Private PCN - Parking Control Managment UK LTD (PCM) - Dartford
« Reply #5 on: »
@simon_11, what makes you think that just because a management company contacts an unregulated private parking company to manage the car park and put up some signs and order you to display a permit, that any of that can override your rights under your AST/lease?

The wording (or lack of it) in your AST/lease will define your liability or not for the PCN. You have not yet told us about it.

Thanks for the reply @b789

Thankfully (due to not having many PCN's) I'm not well versed in this so apologies - just going off what I can see.

I've reviewed the original lease at time of the property's completion and to be honest I can't see anything in there that explicitly mentions or implies anything to do with PCN's or even having to display a parking permit.

Below are some bits from the lease under the "rights granted" section which I feel like may be relevant :

The right for the Tenant and all persons authorised by him (in common with all other persons
entitled to the right) at all times for reasonable purposes connected with the residential use
and occupation of the Property and the Parking Space only to go pass and repass with or
without vehicles (as appropriate) over and along the Building Internal Common Parts and
Estate Common Parts over which the Tenant requires rights in connection with the use and
enjoyment of the Property and Parking Space which are contained within the Estate


The right to park one roadworthy taxed and MOT'd vehicle not exceeding two and one half
tonnes gross unladen weight in the Parking Space


I can't find anything that I feel that would help support my case.


Re: Private PCN - Parking Control Managment UK LTD (PCM) - Dartford
« Reply #6 on: »
"Parking Space" being capitalised suggests that it may be a defined term... Is there anything in your contract (usually at the start) that provides a list of defined terms, and therefore defines the parking space (ie where it is etc.).

Either way, that lease seemingly provides you the right to park a car in your space - that right isn't removed because a third party puts up some signs and sends out some permits.

As well as an appeal to PCM (which we can help with) you should also speak to your landlord and/or their managing agents, and ask why they are permitting a third party company who are a stranger to your lease, to issue £100 charges for parking in a space your lease already grants you use of.

Re: Private PCN - Parking Control Managment UK LTD (PCM) - Dartford
« Reply #7 on: »
I can't find anything that I feel that would help support my case.
Your lease has what is known as supremacy of contract. Subject to the question above by @DWMB2, unless your lease specifically gives the landlord/managing agent a right to appoint a third party the right to issue PCNs (speculative invoices for an alleged breach of contract by an unregulated private parking company) and to require you to display a permit to park in your own or rightful place to park, then you are not obliged to display anything and they have no right in law to charge you at all.

You have a supremely good case to defend. In the most simple terms, unless your lease specifically mentions that you must display a permit and can be invoiced by a third part for not doing so, then the PCN is invalid and there is no contractual requirement for you to pay it.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Private PCN - Parking Control Managment UK LTD (PCM) - Dartford
« Reply #8 on: »
"Parking Space" being capitalised suggests that it may be a defined term... Is there anything in your contract (usually at the start) that provides a list of defined terms, and therefore defines the parking space (ie where it is etc.).

Either way, that lease seemingly provides you the right to park a car in your space - that right isn't removed because a third party puts up some signs and sends out some permits.

As well as an appeal to PCM (which we can help with) you should also speak to your landlord and/or their managing agents, and ask why they are permitting a third party company who are a stranger to your lease, to issue £100 charges for parking in a space your lease already grants you use of.

Yes, it's defined in the interpretations section where "Parking Space" is the parking space edged red and numbered 700 & 700A on Plan 2.

These are my allocated parking spaces and I was parked well within the parking space and lines of bay 700.

I also should mention that this lease was provided just before completion date by the property developer who are also the Landlord to the managing agent (same for estate and block company) and to myself. I've not received any further amendments to this to my knowledge. 

I will ring up the managing agent to see what is happening..

Thanks for both your help on this so far.

Re: Private PCN - Parking Control Managment UK LTD (PCM) - Dartford
« Reply #9 on: »
Quote
I will ring up the managing agent to see what is happening..
Communication in writing is generally preferable - the issue with a phone call is you have no record of what was discussed if you need to rely upon it at a later date.

Re: Private PCN - Parking Control Managment UK LTD (PCM) - Dartford
« Reply #10 on: »
Communicate by email is best as this provides proof of sending and receipt.

What the lease doesn't mention is equally important as what it does say. In the absence of any requirement to display a permit mentioned in the lease, not displaying one is not a breach.

You may have displayed one in the past as a courtesy, but doing so, does not imply any obligation to do so. Additionally, as there is no mention on your lease that a third party, unregulated private parking company, contracted by the landlord, can issue you with speculative invoices for an alleged breach of their third party contract, therefore, you cannot be liable for those alleged debts.

PCM are notorious for trying this on in residential car parks. Sadly, the vast majority of residents at these PCM managed car parks are ignorant of their rights and how they are protected by their leases. PCM rely on their income from low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree who have been failed by the failure of the education system to give them even a basic understanding of civil law.

Simply put, your lease has supremacy of contract over anything that is later introduced. A landlord cannot simply change or alter what is in the original signed lease. They have to go through a whole legal process involving a Tribunal and the requirements of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1987. Just have a read of section 37 5(a) or (b) to understand.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2024, 03:47:32 pm by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
Like Like x 1 View List

Re: Private PCN - Parking Control Managment UK LTD (PCM) - Dartford
« Reply #11 on: »
On one level:

A car without a red resident's permit parked in your space and the contractor employed to protect your rights under your lease issued it with a PCN.

What's to dislike?

Do you think the contractor should know your car? In which case, why bother with permits of whatever colour?

Straight bat IMO at this stage.

I am the keeper of VRM **** and I've been made aware that a PCN was issued to my car on *** because apparently the driver did not display the permit which has been provided to assist your staff identify vehicles permitted to park. Clearly an oversight on their part, but no harm done. I appreciate your diligence in protecting my rights under my lease, but as the Parking Space forms part of the property demised under that lease (which you can verify with the Managing Agent) it therefore does not fall within the scope of your parking 'contract'. I am sorry that you have been inconvenienced. 

Hugs

Re: Private PCN - Parking Control Managment UK LTD (PCM) - Dartford
« Reply #12 on: »
What's to dislike?
Personally my main gripe with these setups is that they are often implemented without the resident being consulted or approving of their introduction, and are managed by parking companies who will continue to pursue a resident even when they are informed that the tenant has a right to park there.

That said, given PCM will reject any first appeal, if the managing agent doesn't intervene, a "pleasant" appeal like the one proposed might well serve a useful purpose of showing the appellant to be a reasonable persons seeking to resolve the matter, whilst still achieving the goal of showing they are well informed (and demonstrate PCM to be the opposite, when they continue their pursuit).

Re: Private PCN - Parking Control Managment UK LTD (PCM) - Dartford
« Reply #13 on: »
This is the 21st century. A physical permit is a joke and absolutely unnecessary. There is only one reason for a physical permit in this day and age and that is to snare victims when the permit is forgotten or falls off.

PCM are renown for this scam. Be as polite and nice as you like. I will place money on them rejecting any appeal. They are not “protecting” your parking spot. They are only interested in scamming you and as many residents as possible.

You are dealing with a firm of ex-clamper thugs. Good luck with the charm offensive.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Private PCN - Parking Control Managment UK LTD (PCM) - Dartford
« Reply #14 on: »
Many leases will contain a clause something like:

"The Landlord may from time to time make and vary regulations for the management, safety, convenience, and benefit of the common parts and the Development. The Tenant must comply with all regulations made by the Landlord, provided they are reasonable and served upon the Tenant in writing.”

A PPC, or the management company, may use whatever clause is in the lease to argue a right to engage a PPC.

Checking might be worthwhile for if/when rebuttal is needed.

In this case it would appear to fail due to the parking spaces not being common areas and it not being notified anyway.