Author Topic: Private parking charge, obscure sign  (Read 80 times)

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alex777

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Private parking charge, obscure sign
« on: December 10, 2024, 11:40:32 pm »
Dear friends,

Can someone advice how to defend private parking charge in court. Car was parked like this, no lines or markings on the road, opposite the sign. Is this road sign misleading enough. Multistorey buildings in residential area.

Thank you
« Last Edit: December 10, 2024, 11:57:00 pm by alex777 »

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mickR

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Re: Private parking charge, obscure sign
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2024, 12:30:04 am »
what did you recive before the letter you've posted???
and did you reply?
post everything using an external host as per...

https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/

b789

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Re: Private parking charge, obscure sign
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2024, 10:25:13 am »
That sign is incapable of forming a contract. Easily defended if it goes to court.

The letter from Moorside Legal, relatively new kids on the block when it comes to bulk litigators, is simply a debt collection letter which you ignore and som ot respond to.

If/when you receive an actual Letter of Claim (LoC) come back and show us.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

alex777

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Re: Private parking charge, obscure sign
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2024, 08:02:20 pm »
what did you recive before the letter you've posted???
and did you reply?
post everything using an external host as per...

https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/

Before this was a ton of letters from Trace. Did not reply to any of the letters, have not appealed.
Have about 5-7 of the same parking charges from PCM, same road sign. Does it make sense to ask for a 'proof of debt' etc
What could be the arguments about this particular road sign in court?

b789

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Re: Private parking charge, obscure sign
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2024, 12:54:15 pm »
For now, just wait and see if/when they send a Letter of Claim (LoC) and how many of the outstanding PCNs are lumped together (or not) in the LoC.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

alex777

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Re: Private parking charge, obscure sign
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 05:44:47 pm »
Received letter of claim now plus reply form

https://limewire.com/d/f921d85c-649d-475b-a37b-c9f2092874f5#hEE77lYWB-E2HKBVkULDgs8Mx2ZCVRXuWfd7xb6hbh4
https://limewire.com/d/f921d85c-649d-475b-a37b-c9f2092874f5#hEE77lYWB-E2HKBVkULDgs8Mx2ZCVRXuWfd7xb6hbh4


Do I fill BOX I and ask for all possible contracts and proof etc? Reply now or wait towards end of 30 days?
Somehow Moor Legal managed to put early date on a letter, letter traveled 8 days or so, royal mail C9 10017.
Return address says MAILSMART, PO box 61278, MBA HOUSE, GARMAN ROAD, LONDON, N17 1DS

Whats the best way to reply, royal mail tracked delivery to PO box? Or is there a better course of action entirely.

b789

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Re: Private parking charge, obscure sign
« Reply #6 on: Today at 01:55:31 am »
You do NOT fill in any of the forms in the LoC. You do not have to respond to an LoC. If you feel the urge to respond, you send your response as a PDF letter attached to an email.

Never use tracked or recorded delivery. If you insist on using snail mail, you send anything first class and you get a free certificate of posting from any post office. A first class letter that is certified as posted is deemed delivered two working days later and that is all the evidence you would need according to the Interpretation Act.

Moorside Legal aspire a form of failed wannabe legal amateurs who are going to screw up the claim spectacularly by completely failing to comply with CPR 16.4(1) which is a surefire way of getting the claim struck out at allocation stage.

All you need to do, if you feel the urge to respond to their LoC is ask them a simple question that then dons them in the more when they mendaciously respond by admitting their fraudulent withholding of VAT from HMRC.

Send the following to Moorside Legal if you must:

Quote
Moorside Legal
PO Box 1418
Bradford
BD19GP

By email to: help@ moorsidelegal.co.uk

Ref: [PCN number]

[Date]

Dear Sirs,

Your Letter Before Claim dated [date] contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your client places reliance upon and thus is in complete contravention of the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims.

I am the registered keeper of the vehicle. I am not obliged to identify the driver and I decline to do so. As there is no legal presumption that the keeper of a vehicle was its driver on any particular occasion, your client cannot pursue me as driver as per VCS v Edward H0KF6C9C [2023].

As you and your client are well aware, there can be no keeper liability as defined in Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 as they have not fully complied with all the requirements of the Act. So your client cannot pursue me as keeper.

As your client cannot pursue me as driver or keeper, it would be an abuse of the court’s process for your client to issue a claim against me and I will defend any such claim vigorously and seek costs in relation to your client’s unreasonable and vexatious conduct under Part 27.14(2)(g)

As your letter lacks specificity and breaches the requirements of the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2) as well as the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)), you must treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents/information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol.

As solicitors you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction and the Pre-Action Protocol for debt claims and your client, as a serial litigator of debt claims, should likewise be aware of them. As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is embarrassing that a firm of Solicitors are sending a consumer a vague and un-evidenced 'Letter Before Claim' in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the Pre-Action Protocol.

I confirm that, once I am in receipt of a Letter Before Claim that complies with the requirements of para 3.1 (a) of the Pre-Action Protocol, I shall then seek advice and submit a formal response within 30 days, as required by the Protocol. Thus, I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

1. An explanation of the cause of action
2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
4. what the details of the claim are; for how long it is claimed the vehicle was parked, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract.
6. If the claim is for a contractual breach, photographs showing the vehicle was parked in contravention of said contract.
7. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
8. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC Code of Practice v9 Appendix 1 of the alleged contravention took place before 1st October 2024 or the BPA/IPC Private Parking Single Code of Practice after that date.
9. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
10. Photographs of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed) at the time of any alleged contravention.
11. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added
12. Am I to understand that the additional £70 represents what is dressed up as a 'Debt Recovery' fee, and if so, is this nett or inclusive of VAT? If the latter, would you kindly explain why I am being asked to pay the operator’s VAT?
13. With regard to the principal alleged PCN sum: Is this damages, or will it be pleaded as consideration for parking?

I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).

If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13, 15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.

Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.

Yours faithfully
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain