Author Topic: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal  (Read 3284 times)

0 Members and 83 Guests are viewing this topic.

PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« on: »
I'm sure this has come up plenty of times, and I did have a search of the forums to try and find some examples - but unfortunately drew a blank.

I have received a copy of a privately issued PCN from the leasing firm that my company use. Ticket was issued 4th May for £100. The recently implemented process, is that the leading company will pay any fine that is issued + a £12.50 Administration Fee. Unfortunately, by them doing so - there is then no right to appeal.

My initial lease was with a different company, they transferred the lease over to this new company recently and last month implemented the new policy that they will pay fines on your behalf and apply an Admin fee. This is taken out of my salary.

Now, two problems I have with this. Firstly, I feel that there should be a right to appeal. By the leasing company paying any fines, it denies this right.

Secondly, I never signed any agreement with the leasing company that allowed them to make payments for fines and deduct them from my salary - there is also nothing in my contract of employment which states this. The agreement I signed was with the previous leasing company, of which no such terms existed.

I've wrote to both parties to explain the above, but i'm unsure where I stand legally. I'm usually really on the ball when it comes to anything legal, and more often than not I find that the law protects you from being screwed over - but i'm not sure about it this time!

Share on Bluesky Share on Facebook


Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #1 on: »
Please post up.a scan or photos of the copy PCN. Just redact your name & address. If this is a "private" Parking Charge Notice then your topic needs to be moved to the correct sub-forum.

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #2 on: »
This is a private fine - apologies if posted in the wrong forum. Attached fine.

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #3 on: »
In that case you need to click on the "report to moderator" button and ask for the topic to be moved to the "Private Parking Tickets" forum.

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #4 on: »
Who do you have a written agreement with relating to the vehicle, your employer or a leasing company (or both)?

If Smart Parking have been paid, then that is the end of their involvement in the matter. This is now a legal dispute between you, and whoever has taken your money. If it has been docked from your pay, the dispute would seemingly involve your employer in some capacity.

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #5 on: »
Smart are laughing al the way to the bank thanks to the lease company paying the charge when, in NI, there is no keeper liability.

OP, you now have to sue whoever plundered your wages. It's not (not so) Smart Parking. Your claim will be under breaches of the CRA 2015 and other contract law. You will need to show that your original lease has no reference to private invoices (this was not a fine or a penalty which are different matters entirely) being paid and then charged back. What clause is there in your employment contract that allows your employer to garnish your wages for someone else's mistake?

This could be quite complex legally and perhaps you would be better off getting advice from someone who is legally trained.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #6 on: »
Quote
This could be quite complex legally and perhaps you would be better off getting advice from someone who is legally trained.
This was one of my first thoughts, too. It's not really a parking dispute any more (other than the fact the charge itself ultimately stems from a parking charge) - it's somewhat outside of my wheelhouse (as is any NI specific legislation).

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #7 on: »
Just so the OP understands what should have happened... Smart Parking have no idea who the driver is. They get the keepers details from the DVLA and sent an NtK to the keeper, the lease company.

The lease company only has to tell Smart that the vehicle is leased to your company and send a copy of a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire/lease firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement, a copy of the hire/lease agreement and a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer/leasee under that hire agreement and that would have transferred liability to your company.

However, Smart will not have included copies of those documents which means that they could not rely on PoFA to transfer liability from the unknown driver to them, the hirer/leasee. Not only that, because the alleged breach of terms of parking occurred in NI, again, there is no keeper liability and PoFA does not even apply there. The lease company could have simply ignored the NtK and nothing would have come of it.

However, because your company has named you as the driver, you became the liable person in all this. Even though the lease company and your company could not be liable, you became so once your company threw you under the bus. The problem now is that the lease company paid the charge and then charged back to your company who have decided that they have the right to garnish your wages for the sins of others.

Check your employment contract carefully and seek advice from a qualified legal professional. Unfortunately, this is no longer just a parking charge issue.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #8 on: »
It may be an illegal deduction. However:-

- Of itself that doesn't remove any liability you may have. They just can't deduct it.

- Your contact of employment is very unlikely to cover it.

- A side agreement of some description would be common as a user of a company vehicle. This would typically cover it (or at least attempt to, but many won't. They will tend to talk about "fines and penalties".).

- If not covered how much do you want to pushback.

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #9 on: »
I have received a copy of a privately issued PCN from the leasing firm that my company use.

So the PCN was issued to the leasing firm who paid the charge. Yes?

My initial lease was with a different company, they transferred the lease over to this new company recently and last month implemented the new policy that they will pay fines on your behalf and apply an Admin fee. This is taken out of my salary.

Secondly, I never signed any agreement with the leasing company that allowed them to make payments for fines and deduct them from my salary - there is also nothing in my contract of employment which states this.


OP, let's get the facts absolutely clear pl. I suggest using the terms leasing company, your employer and you

The leasing company's agreement for this vehicle is with who, your employer or you? Logic dictates that it should be your employer, otherwise your salary wouldn't enter the equation, instead you'd be sent an invoice by the leasing company.

I won't go into what flows from this until we know who's who.

Let's take this one step at a time.

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #10 on: »
Thank you all for your responses - I have received a response from the leasing company below

"I do apologise for the delay in responding.
 
When 'The leasing company' took over the 'employ' contract from 'previous leasing company', communications around fines and the new process were communicated to the driver population.
 
The contract is between 'the leadsing company' and 'your employer' therefore drivers would not sign any type of contract. The policy is ‘pay and rebill’ to 'your employer' and this is to avoid fine costs escalating. If you can provide us the relevant evidence my fines team are still able to put in a dispute on your behalf."
 


I think this answers a few of the questions that have been mentioned. I do want to fight this, because the fine should not have been issued. I will try and dig out an extract from our company car policy on fines in the meantime.

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #11 on: »
My Company Car Policy

7.3 Fines
You are responsible for paying any parking fines/charges, congestion charges and fixed penalty
notices incurred by you or any other authorised driver whilst using your company car. These must
be paid promptly and if you don’t, or if the fine/charge is sent directly to 'The leasing company' as the registered
owner of the car, 'The leasing company' will pay on your behalf, and this will be deducted from your salary together
with an additional £12.50 plus VAT administration fee. Failure to pay any outstanding fines and
surcharges may result in disciplinary action being taken.
If you’re disputing any of these charges you must let 'the leasing company' know as soon as possible


Would the sensible move here to be request the leasing company to provide evidence that I was the driver of the vehicle are per Northern Ireland law?

Grounds for appeal
Unlike England and Wales, the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) does not apply in
Northern Ireland. This means that the driver, rather than the registered keeper of
the vehicle, is liable for any private parking charges issued. The onus is on the
parking operator to issue the PCN letter to the driver of the vehicle. As the registered
keeper of the vehicle, you can appeal the PCN by asking the parking operator to
provide evidence that you were driving on the date of the alleged breach, if no
evidence exists, the PCN can be cancelled.
Also, if you feel there are extenuating circumstances involved in your case or that
the PCN has been issued incorrectly, you can appeal the PCN. Valid grounds for
appeals include signage being inadequate on site, errors with ANPR cameras, getting
a PCN for parking in a disabled bay despite having a valid blue badge or if you are an
employee within the grounds of the car park.

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #12 on: »
Who was or may have been liable for the original parking charge is irrelevant now, as it has been paid. You could ask the leasing company why they voluntarily paid a charge for which they could not have been held liable, due to there being no provision in NI to recover parking charges from registered keepers, but they may not engage with you if their contract is with your employer. This is seemingly a dispute between you and your employer. Part of the issue seems to be that the policy is construed in such a way as to remove any opportunity for the original charge to be challenged by you.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2024, 03:53:08 pm by DWMB2 »

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #13 on: »
OP, you posted:

..Would the sensible move here to be request the leasing company to provide evidence that I was the driver of the vehicle are per Northern Ireland law?

Why? If nothing else this would seem totally premature because:

You also posted:
My Company Car Policy

7.3 Fines
You are responsible for paying any parking fines/charges, congestion charges and fixed penalty
notices incurred by you or any other authorised driver whilst using your company car.....

...If you’re disputing any of these charges you must let 'the leasing company' know as soon as possible


Then from the leasing company:

If you can provide us the relevant evidence my fines team are still able to put in a dispute on your behalf."

So, you have contacted the leasing company as per your company's Car Policy and you've had a response(dated when we've no idea).

Action this response and exhaust all internal methods before you even contemplate legal remedies.

Let's also put this in context: what sum of money is in dispute?

NB. your company's policy, and one by which it would seem you are bound, is that you are fully responsible for penalties etc. incurred while 'your company car' is allocated to you. Therefore it doesn't matter who was driving, under this policy you are held liable. That there might not be 'keeper liability' in NI is not the issue for the leasing company IMO. They have a contract with your employer who have agreed the manner in which such matters would be handled. Nowt to do with PoFA and ping-ponging the niceties of who was driving. 




Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #14 on: »
My Company Car Policy

7.3 Fines
You are responsible for paying any parking fines/charges, congestion charges and fixed penalty
notices incurred by you or any other authorised driver whilst using your company car. These must
be paid promptly and if you don’t, or if the fine/charge is sent directly to 'The leasing company' as the registered
owner of the car, 'The leasing company' will pay on your behalf, and this will be deducted from your salary together
with an additional £12.50 plus VAT administration fee. Failure to pay any outstanding fines and
surcharges may result in disciplinary action being taken.
If you’re disputing any of these charges you must let 'the leasing company' know as soon as possible
This would seem to be an inherently unfair clause as it allows you, the employee, absolutely no chance of disputing a charge. I could go out and find a leased car (obvious from the number plate or sticker in the back window) and simply send an invoice dressed up as a parking charge to the lease company in the hope that they might simply cough up with no question. (OK, let's not get into the basic potential unlawfulness of my doing that.) So, you can tell the leasing company that you are disputing the charge, but what would then happen is not clear. The parking company has the money, and will simply not engage. The same would be true for any real "fine" where there is no initial notice for the driver, e.g. a council enforced traffic offence or congestion charge.