Author Topic: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal  (Read 3277 times)

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Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #15 on: »
That term in your "company car policy" is an unfair term and has different meanings. Is the "company car policy" a part of your employment contract or is it a separate policy?

First, the term "Fines" in the policy states that you are responsible for paying "parking fines/charges" whilst using the company car. It says they must be paid promptly if they are sent to you or if they are sent to the leasing company they will be paid by the leasing company and the sum plus £12.50 plus VAT will be deducted from your salary.

There is an impossibility in the above clause in that if the PCN goes to the leasing company and they pay it, you have no way of knowing you are responsible for a PCN until it has been paid and deducted from your wages plus the admin fee. That is an unfair term.

The policy also defines those charges under "fines". A PCN from an unregulated private parking company is not and never can be a "fine". Therefore there are different meanings and they are ambiguous.

Unfortunately, the issues that have arisen are nothing to do with parking on private land or consumer rights. They are to do with your employment contract and company car policy. In your scenario, the key issues revolve around your employer's handling of the PCN and the subsequent wage deductions. This raises potential concerns under employment law, particularly regarding unauthorised deductions from wages and the fairness of your employer's actions.

The relevant statutes and principles concern the Employment Rights Act 1996 (ERA):

Section 13 prohibits unauthorised deductions from wages. Employers can only make deductions if they are required or authorised by statute, the employee's contract, or if the employee has given prior written consent. You need to find the relevant section of your employment contract that allows your employer to garnish your wages under these circumstances.

What are the implied terms in your employment contract? Your employer has a duty of mutual trust and confidence.

Your employer must act in a manner that does not destroy the trust and confidence inherent in your employment relationship. Arbitrary deductions without consultation may breach this duty.

The following is suggested on how you should progress this:

Arguing the Case. To address the issue of an unauthorised wage deduction for a PCN, consider the following steps:

1. Review the Employment Contract and Company Policy

Examine the employment contract and any relevant company policies regarding the use of company cars and handling of parking charges from unregulated private parking companies noting that this was not a "fine". Check if there is a specific clause that authorises your employer to deduct parking charges that are not "fines" from your salary.

2. Assess the Lawfulness of the Deduction

If your employment contract does not explicitly allow for such deductions, your employer may have breached Section 13 of the ERA by making an unauthorised deduction from your salary.

3. Consent: Even if there is a relevant clause, you, the employee, must have been made aware of it and given explicit or implicit consent.

4. Gather Evidence

Documentation: Collect all relevant documents, including the PCN/NtH etc., copies of all communication with your employer regarding the deduction, the employment contract, and company car policy.

5. Procedural Fairness: Note any lack of opportunity given to you to appeal the PCN or discuss the deduction before it was made.

6. Raise a Grievance

Use the company’s internal grievance procedures to formally raise the issue. Clearly outline why the deduction is believed to be unauthorised and unfair.

7. Seek Legal Advice

Consult an employment lawyer to understand the legal standing and potential remedies. Legal advice can provide tailored guidance based on the specifics of the case.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #16 on: »
Employment contracts often state that you will abide by/be bound by things like Company Handbook or Company Car Policy, and any changes made to them during your employment. Check carefully.

The use of the word "charges" alongside "fines" is, indeed ambiguous, and they would claim that it does include private parking charges.

Ultimately, though, how far this should be taken very much depends on the relationship the OP has with their employer, and what consequences may result in rocking the boat. Although challenging in this way shouldn't have an adverse effect, the smaller the company, and thus the closer the HR department is to the managers, the more likely it is to come back at you. I've worked in very large companies where I have felt no reticence in challenging HR where they are not sticking to what's in my contract. Also in very small companies where what's written down matters much less than my immediate relationship with the MD (which may be only one or two steps up the reporting ladder).
« Last Edit: June 02, 2024, 02:10:49 pm by The Slithy Tove »
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Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #17 on: »
+1. This is not the Scopes Trial, can I suggest that a sense of proportionality is brought to bear.

OP, I posted previously:

If you can provide us the relevant evidence my fines team are still able to put in a dispute on your behalf."


So, you have contacted the leasing company as per your company's Car Policy and you've had a response(dated when we've no idea).

I say again, IMO action this response and exhaust all internal methods before you even contemplate legal remedies.






Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #18 on: »
Thank you for the further responses - the fine is for £100. My employer has over 100,000 employees and therefore i've not problem with pushing back and trying to get this resolved (in the right and most professional way of course.

I'm awaiting the leasing company to respond to me requesting that it be appealed as per the policy and will continue to follow the process. I'll also check my employment contract. Once this is done i'd be happy enough to raise a formal grievance through our HR process.

Update - this is in my employment contract regarding deductions.

"7.4. You agree that we may deduct from your salary, or any other sums owed to you, any
money owed to us or to any Group Company, by you including, but not limited to:
7.4.1. any overpayment of salary or accrued holiday pay, training course fees,
outstanding loans.
7.4.2. Anything we may have paid you from a bonus incentive or commission
scheme, if the scheme allows it."
« Last Edit: June 04, 2024, 10:31:53 am by JD1905 »

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #19 on: »
"7.4. You agree that we may deduct from your salary, or any other sums owed to you, any
money owed to us or to any Group Company, by you including, but not limited to:
7.4.1. any overpayment of salary or accrued holiday pay, training course fees,
outstanding loans.
7.4.2. Anything we may have paid you from a bonus incentive or commission
scheme, if the scheme allows it."
7.4 refers to money owed by you. It would require some twisted logic if the company paid an invoice addressed to them without informing you beforehand that it was your responsibility to deal with it. If you had been given the opportunity to deal with the invoice and go through the process of appealing it, you would not necessarily have owed the company anything.

The rest of that para, whilst not being limited, does not infer that invoices from unregulated private parking companies addressed to the company are something that you owe them if they disregard your right to deal with it before they do so.

Do you belong to any union or professional association that can provide you with legal advice? Do you have any insurance policy that includes legal cover? Those are two options where you may be able to at least get some initial advice on how to proceed.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #20 on: »
OP, assuming you know on what date did the car entered Marlborough House and on what date did it leave, what was the permitted time, if any, on the site?

What limits, if any, are placed on your use of the car under company's policy, was it being operated within these and, if not, what ramifications could come back your way?

Unless as has been flagged you have some form of access to free legal advice then I suggest you think what is in your wider and future financial and employment interests and set these against the issue of £100 in respect of a parking charge which, for all we know, was properly raised.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2024, 06:34:44 pm by H C Andersen »

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #21 on: »
I'll also check my employment contract.

It doesn't have to be in your employment contract to allow its deduction from salary. It just needs to be appropriately agreed somewhere.

e.g. Your car user agreement or similar.


Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #22 on: »
OP, your 'employment contract' comprises more than the bare minimum prescribed by law which, if my memory is correct, is something like job title, place of work, hours of work, leave entitlement, salary, when paid etc. It includes a host of other policies and procedures e.g. absence policy, grievance, disciplinary etc. etc.

And the answers to the questions regarding whether the vehicle was where alleged and whether in breach etc. which have not yet been addressed are?? 

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #23 on: »
There was no clear signage to indicate that the car was parked contrary to any restrictions and the car was being used in line with my company car policy / agreement.

I'll await a response from my employer, but I think you only option that I have really is to get legal advice on this. I thank you for your responses and will come back and update once it is concluded.
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Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #24 on: »
I don't think the reason for the original PCN is at issue. That has been paid by someone other than the OP. It wasn't even addressed to him. The PPC won't care as they have their money.

This is now an issue about from who should/can the OP claim back the money that is being garnished from his salary. It has nothing to do with the PPC. It is either his employer or the lease company, if it was they who paid the PCN.

I would like to know what the outcome is but I don't think we are qualified to give much more advice and it is more likely that a qualified lawyer with a specialisation in employment or contract law would be more suitable.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #25 on: »
I agree, anything around the original charge is irrelevant now.

HOWEVER the policy says he will have a chance to 'dispute the charge by letting them know' and they didn't provide that opportunity, by paying it on immediate receipt before he was aware of the charge and able to 'let them know' it they went against their own policy. As such, IMO, they voided their right to then garnish the wages in line with the policy they failed to comply with.
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!
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Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #26 on: »
The issues regarding the original breach and NTK cannot be ignored IMO because the OP said they were still having dialogue pursuant to the leasing company's response to their original - but unseen- contact.

Only once all internal procedural options have been exhausted could the OP look to dispute matters with their employer on the narrow point at issue..about which we know nothing except the OP's assertion that 'There was no clear signage to indicate that the car was parked contrary to any restrictions'. We don't know, because the OP hasn't responded on this point, even what restrictions were in place(according to the creditor) and on what day the breach actually occurred because the time on site went past midnight. 

Of course they're free to take issue with their employer regarding a provision in their employment contract at any time.

Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #27 on: »
Got what is likely to be the final update from the leasing company.

'Our Fines team have advised us that , *the leasing company*, as the registered keeper of the vehicle, will continue to incur charges if the parking fine or parking charges (or any similar contraventions) are not paid. If left unpaid, *the leasing company* may be subject to further fees and other costs incurred for bailiffs or any other legal costs which *the leasing company* will have to re-charge to the driver’s employer. The agreement we have in place with the driver’s employer obligates the employer to be responsible for any fines, penalties, or parking fines/charges (or similar contraventions). This is the arrangement *the leasing company* has with the driver’s employer, the driver is welcome to engage directly with their employer in relation to this arrangement.

*the leasing company* can appeal the fine if the driver supplies Arval with the relevant evidence to challenge the contravention.

If you have any evidence on which we can appeal this charge, please let us know and we can appeal.


I think it's fair enough - this is an issue with my employer now and i'll raise it with HR to discuss with them.



Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #28 on: »
Got what is likely to be the final update from the leasing company.

'Our Fines team have advised us that , *the leasing company*, as the registered keeper of the vehicle, will continue to incur charges if the parking fine or parking charges (or any similar contraventions) are not paid. If left unpaid, *the leasing company* may be subject to further fees and other costs incurred for bailiffs or any other legal costs which *the leasing company* will have to re-charge to the driver’s employer. The agreement we have in place with the driver’s employer obligates the employer to be responsible for any fines, penalties, or parking fines/charges (or similar contraventions). This is the arrangement *the leasing company* has with the driver’s employer, the driver is welcome to engage directly with their employer in relation to this arrangement.

*the leasing company* can appeal the fine if the driver supplies Arval with the relevant evidence to challenge the contravention.

If you have any evidence on which we can appeal this charge, please let us know and we can appeal.


But it's BS as they just had to name you as hirer and would have had no liability at that point. So no they wouldn't have "continue to incur charges".

As for the last line, that shows a complete misunderstanding as they closed your/their/any route to appeal by paying.

I don't think it's 'fair enough' at all, it's abject incompetence by them.
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!
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Re: PCN Paid by Leasing Company - No right to appeal
« Reply #29 on: »
Having spoken with HR they informed me


'I would advise going back to *the leasing company* to check exactly what evidence they are lookking for. It is standard practice to pay fines, but there is still an appeal process through *the leasing company*. '


'*The employer* are processing instructions from *The Leasing company* in these cases and it would be for *the leasing company* to change the process if it is not applicable in Northern Ireland'