Author Topic: PCN for Gatwick airport drop off zone  (Read 900 times)

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dk007

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Re: PCN for Gatwick airport drop off zone
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2024, 03:52:59 pm »
Sure, thanks, I have appealed it now.

Nosy Parker

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Re: PCN for Gatwick airport drop off zone
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2024, 08:17:37 am »

You can add the following at a later stage when you get the opportunity to comment on NCP's case - if they even bother to oppose the appeal:

Attention is drawn to the fact that POPLA's Complaints Team has twice issued apologies for assessors wrongly applying keeper liability for parking on airport land and confirming that, as airport land is not 'relevant land' as defined in POFA, there can be no keeper liability for parking on airport land.  The most recent apology relates to POPLA case 4822223007 and was issued on 7 December 2023. 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2024, 09:57:27 am by Nosy Parker »
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dk007

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Re: PCN for Gatwick airport drop off zone
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2024, 08:46:07 am »
Hello experts, I recieved an email 30th Jan from Popla that NCP has now uploaded its evidence and I have got 7 days from the date of this correspondence to provide any comments. Should I add any comments?

Nosy Parker

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Re: PCN for Gatwick airport drop off zone
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2024, 09:23:56 am »

You can add the following at a later stage when you get the opportunity to comment on NCP's case - if they even bother to oppose the appeal:

Attention is drawn to the fact that POPLA's Complaints Team has twice issued apologies for assessors wrongly applying keeper liability for parking on airport land and confirming that, as airport land is not 'relevant land' as defined in POFA, there can be no keeper liability for parking on airport land.  The most recent apology relates to POPLA case 4822223007 and was issued on 7 December 2023. 

Did you mean to ask us whether you should comment on the operatorís evidence without showing that evidence to us, or are you about to post it for us to review?

If the latter, please obscure any information that could identify you (POPLA code, PCN number, vehicle number, name, address). Use an external hosting site such as www.imgur.com and post the link.

If the former, then obviously we canít advise beyond repeating the statement I previously advised you to include in your comments.

Nosy Parker

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Re: PCN for Gatwick airport drop off zone
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2024, 09:28:38 am »
PS As you received the POPLA email on 30 January, that date is day 1 of your 7 days to respond and today is the last day.

So you must act today if you want to comment on the operatorís evidence. If you say nothing else, at least say what I advised you twice to say.

H C Andersen

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Re: PCN for Gatwick airport drop off zone
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2024, 09:38:26 am »
Post the email or else transcribe the relevant part word for word regarding the latest date by which you must respond.

At present we have you saying 'i have got 7 days from the date of this correspondence' and NP who, probably through experience, thinks this is '7 days beginning on the date'.

As explained, these are not the same.


dk007

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Re: PCN for Gatwick airport drop off zone
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2024, 10:06:34 am »
Hi,  looks like today is the last day, this is what the email says:

" you have seven days from the date of this correspondence to provide comments on the evidence uploaded by NCP limited- Gatwick Airport"

And it is an 211 page pdf document with personal information at number of places, please advise how to hide the personal information in such a document and then to upload.

Nosy Parker

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Re: PCN for Gatwick airport drop off zone
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2024, 10:14:40 am »
I am sorry you sat on this for the entire 7 days before seeking advice.  Unfortunately, I have to go out to my day job now.  Hopefully someone else will advise further.  All I can do is urge you to use the wording I've already provided.

DWMB2

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Re: PCN for Gatwick airport drop off zone
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2024, 10:28:45 am »
As a general rule, you should use the 'comments' stage, to point out any holes in the operator's evidence, anything within it that reinforces your case, and anything in it that weakens theirs. If you've made a point in your appeal that they have failed to address, point this out. If they have made a claim that is not backed up by their evidence pack, point this out, etc. etc.

It would be useful to see the document but, like Nosy Parker, I also have a day job and will have little time to pour over such a large document in any great detail. We potentially don't need to see all 211 pages, but as we don't know what pages contain what, it's hard to advise on what would be useful to see.

H C Andersen

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Re: PCN for Gatwick airport drop off zone
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2024, 10:45:44 am »
7 days from is......7 days from! Ends on 6th.

As regards 211 pages, look for anything which:
1.Gives NCP the right to operate on the land - it's hard to believe that everyone is so mad that even large corporations don't know the status of their land. Look for anything which relates to bylaws applying.
2. Explains the delay of 5 months between event and serving of NTK, surely there's something in the evidence to explain or which refers to this.

In essence, your defence as registered keeper is that:
In the event that a driver is liable to a landowner or their authorised agent for a charge or however else this might be described pursuant to a breach of contract, then the law allows the creditor to seek relief by holding the keeper liable in the driver's stead subject to 'all applicable conditions under this Schedule[Schedule 4 to PoFA]' being met by them.


POPLA is not a judicial proceeding and therefore cannot require the appellant to take any particular action but may simply give their view as to whether in their opinion the creditor would be entitled to relief under Schedule 4 which relates solely to the right to hold the keeper liable.

This must not be confused with the creditor's rights to pursue the driver which are legally distinct.

Such relief is only available if all applicable conditions in the Schedule have been met by the creditor: no burden in this matter falls to the keeper.

..list the creditor's failings..which are objective.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2024, 11:14:34 am by H C Andersen »

Nosy Parker

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Re: PCN for Gatwick airport drop off zone
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2024, 10:58:06 am »
I agree it should be that way. But we are in the wacko world of POPLA. I donít advise waiting till tomorrow to find out whether POPLA has come to its senses on this
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H C Andersen

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Re: PCN for Gatwick airport drop off zone
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2024, 11:25:02 am »

But we do need the OP to give the 211 pages as good a review as they can.


b789

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Re: PCN for Gatwick airport drop off zone
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2024, 12:16:58 pm »
OP, you say that you received the operators response ďpackĒ by email. Iím assuming this is as a PDF attachment.

If this is the case, you should duplicate the PDF file and then, using a PDF editor, redact any bits that we do not need to see such as your name, address, the VRN and the PCN number. You can then upload the redacted document to DropBox, making sure it is publicly accessible.

You can set up a free DropBox account if you donít already have one. Without doing all the legwork for you, there are probably other free hosting websites that let you publish PDF documents.

Why have you left it so late to respond to this?
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.

dk007

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Re: PCN for Gatwick airport drop off zone
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2024, 01:47:44 pm »
Hi, I have tried to split the pdf, page 1 and page 3 are attached, page 2 has lots of personal information and just a context to page 3 which i am attaching so left page 2. then it has got all the pcn, appeals etc which is already here. Part 3 is the one with all the images etc. I have removed many of the last pages as they had the same information as in the last page of part 3 pdf. it was increasing the size of the pdf to be very high and did not look relevant. 

I thought of raising it earlier but other things got me busy and got delayed.

b789

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Re: PCN for Gatwick airport drop off zone
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2024, 02:06:18 pm »
Unless there's anything else in the response pack that we haven't seen, so far, there is no rebuttal of the fact that you appealed as the keeper. Nowhere, in what you've shown us, is there a reference to why they are trying to hold you liable as the driver.

The fact that the driver was at the location for 8-9 minutes matters not. They could be there for a day and still not be liable for the charge if they are not identified. Do they mention anywhere in any of the paperwork that they are "assuming" you must be the driver because you are also the keeper?

As long as you have not identified as the driver, they cannot hold you liable as the keeper because this alleged contravention took place on land covered by bylaws. They have not responded or rebutted the fact that you are the keeper.

You also have the fact that the signage is rubbish. Their photos of the signage prove that. Have they included any photos of the vehicle at the drop off zone?

Subject to any other opinions, you only need to highlight the fact that they have not answered how they can hold you liable as the keeper. In your response, you should "lead" the assessor to the facts about their inability to hold you liable as the keeper and that no inference that you were the driver can be made.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2024, 02:07:51 pm by b789 »
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. - Mark Twain.