Author Topic: Payment not made - Civil Enforcement  (Read 175 times)

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b789

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Re: Payment not made - Civil Enforcement
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2024, 09:27:42 am »
What were the terms on the signage that were breached? The NtK is not clear what the actual breach is. That in itself fails the requirements of PoFA to hold the keeper liable. Paragraph 9(2)(c) states:

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A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met:

The notice must describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable.

Having looked at the GSV of the location in June 2023, it does not appear that the terms signs bring to the attention of the driver that there is a 100 charge. Can you go back and get a clearer picture of the terms sign at the car park?



As a matter of interest, what was the drivers reason for "payment not made in accordance with terms displayed on signage"? What were the circumstances? Have you tried Plan A yet? A request to the landowner or the business that contracted CE to cancel the PCN?

CE will not cancel an appeal for any reason. However, a POPLA assessor will consider any points of law or failure to follow the BPA CoP.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2024, 09:42:12 am by b789 »

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Re: Payment not made - Civil Enforcement
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2024, 12:04:03 pm »
What were the terms on the signage that were breached? The NtK is not clear what the actual breach is. That in itself fails the requirements of PoFA to hold the keeper liable. Paragraph 9(2)(c) states:

Quote
A notice which is to be relied on as a notice to keeper for the purposes of paragraph 6(1)(b) is given in accordance with this paragraph if the following requirements are met:

The notice must describe the parking charges due from the driver as at the end of that period, the circumstances in which the requirement to pay them arose (including the means by which the requirement was brought to the attention of drivers) and the other facts that made them payable.

Having looked at the GSV of the location in June 2023, it does not appear that the terms signs bring to the attention of the driver that there is a 100 charge. Can you go back and get a clearer picture of the terms sign at the car park?



As a matter of interest, what was the drivers reason for "payment not made in accordance with terms displayed on signage"? What were the circumstances? Have you tried Plan A yet? A request to the landowner or the business that contracted CE to cancel the PCN?

CE will not cancel an appeal for any reason. However, a POPLA assessor will consider any points of law or failure to follow the BPA CoP.

Unfortunately the place is completely out of reach as it is very far and this was a journey out of our city

b789

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Re: Payment not made - Civil Enforcement
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2024, 12:06:58 pm »
...and in answer to the rest of my questions?

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Re: Payment not made - Civil Enforcement
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2024, 12:42:07 pm »
...and in answer to the rest of my questions?

They haven't got any circumstances that they remember, they have just told me it was a stop off before a journey back to London.

'A request to the landowner or the business that contracted CE to cancel the PCN?'

How do I go about doing this? Does this mean contacting the car park and asking them to cancel the PCN?

b789

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Re: Payment not made - Civil Enforcement
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2024, 01:26:50 pm »
Does this mean contacting the car park and asking them to cancel the PCN?
No. This means that you should always try Plan A first. Plan A is where you try and contact whoever contracted CE in the first place. It will be either the landowner (or their agent) or one of the businesses on the land.

Plan B is an appeal to CE and Plan C is, in the event of Plans A and B not getting the PCN cancelled, is an appeal to CE's (supposedly) independent appeals service, POPLA. Failure in any of those three plans has no bearing on Plan D, which is where a truly independent arbiter, a judge, would decide whether you owed a debt to CE.

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Re: Payment not made - Civil Enforcement
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2024, 11:19:13 pm »
Does this mean contacting the car park and asking them to cancel the PCN?
No. This means that you should always try Plan A first. Plan A is where you try and contact whoever contracted CE in the first place. It will be either the landowner (or their agent) or one of the businesses on the land.

Plan B is an appeal to CE and Plan C is, in the event of Plans A and B not getting the PCN cancelled, is an appeal to CE's (supposedly) independent appeals service, POPLA. Failure in any of those three plans has no bearing on Plan D, which is where a truly independent arbiter, a judge, would decide whether you owed a debt to CE.

Right so upon checking Google they have no phone number, so would I find out the company from GSV?

The website link directs me to https://www.yourparkingspace.co.uk/locations/show/4294964577

Also upon calling under what ground do I tell them to cancel the PCN?

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Re: Payment not made - Civil Enforcement
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2024, 11:35:34 pm »
A quick Google suggests info@dinecroft.co.uk may well put you in touch with the owners.

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Also upon calling under what ground do I tell them to cancel the PCN?
I wouldn't recommend 'telling' them to do anything - instead you ought to ask politely. If you fail the attitude test they'll probably just tell you to take it up with Civil Enforcement. As for what grounds - you'll need to help us to help you. Are there any reasons you believe that you don't owe the money? You haven't really told us much about the incident - did the driver pay for their parking? If not, why not?

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Re: Payment not made - Civil Enforcement
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2024, 10:32:24 am »
A quick Google suggests info@dinecroft.co.uk may well put you in touch with the owners.

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Also upon calling under what ground do I tell them to cancel the PCN?
I wouldn't recommend 'telling' them to do anything - instead you ought to ask politely. If you fail the attitude test they'll probably just tell you to take it up with Civil Enforcement. As for what grounds - you'll need to help us to help you. Are there any reasons you believe that you don't owe the money? You haven't really told us much about the incident - did the driver pay for their parking? If not, why not?

They had no specific reason.. just said it was before they headed on the motorway and it was a quick stop off. They didn't leave the vehicle ect. so nothing specific with reasonable grounds imo

b789

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Re: Payment not made - Civil Enforcement
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2024, 10:49:03 am »
Looking at the car park in GSV, why do you think they had reason to believe that they were not obliged to pay for parking at the site? There is a very obvious sign at the entrance that clearly states it is private land and that they could pay by phone or at a machine for the privilege of using the car park.

Not leaving the vehicle does not absolve the driver from being liable to pay for the facility of parking there. They were there for over 20 minutes. Have a read of the BPA CoP where it states about grace periods for consideration of the terms.

No one here likes having to pay the ex-clampers extortionate sums having breached their terms. However, apart from the technical breach of the requirements of PoFA, as explained in my first post, and an argument that the terms notices do not sufficiently bring to the attention of the driver the charge for breaching the terms, I am struggling to see on what additional basis you can appeal. Not that a Plan B appeal would succeed anyway. It has some chance at a Plan C POPLA appeal.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2024, 10:51:42 am by b789 »

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Re: Payment not made - Civil Enforcement
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2024, 11:08:39 am »
Looking at the car park in GSV, why do you think they had reason to believe that they were not obliged to pay for parking at the site? There is a very obvious sign at the entrance that clearly states it is private land and that they could pay by phone or at a machine for the privilege of using the car park.

Not leaving the vehicle does not absolve the driver from being liable to pay for the facility of parking there. They were there for over 20 minutes. Have a read of the BPA CoP where it states about grace periods for consideration of the terms.

No one here likes having to pay the ex-clampers extortionate sums having breached their terms. However, apart from the technical breach of the requirements of PoFA, as explained in my first post, and an argument that the terms notices do not sufficiently bring to the attention of the driver the charge for breaching the terms, I am struggling to see on what additional basis you can appeal. Not that a Plan B appeal would succeed anyway. It has some chance at a Plan C POPLA appeal.

I agree 100%.

Would you recommend trying Plan A and if not then C?

b789

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Re: Payment not made - Civil Enforcement
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2024, 11:15:23 am »
Plan A is always the first objective. However, you cannot try Plan C without completing the process for Plan B. You need to have an appeal to the operator be refused and they are then obliged to provide you with a POPLA code in order to be able to appeal to them.

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Re: Payment not made - Civil Enforcement
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2024, 11:58:22 am »
Plan A is always the first objective. However, you cannot try Plan C without completing the process for Plan B. You need to have an appeal to the operator be refused and they are then obliged to provide you with a POPLA code in order to be able to appeal to them.

So it's suggested I kindly email them to cancel the PCN as a good-will gesture?

b789

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Re: Payment not made - Civil Enforcement
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2024, 12:10:31 pm »
Who are "them" that you think you've been advised to email?

Have you researched who the landowner or the business that contracted CE is?

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Re: Payment not made - Civil Enforcement
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2024, 12:59:03 pm »
A quick Google suggests info@dinecroft.co.uk may well put you in touch with the owners.

Quote
Also upon calling under what ground do I tell them to cancel the PCN?
I wouldn't recommend 'telling' them to do anything - instead you ought to ask politely. If you fail the attitude test they'll probably just tell you to take it up with Civil Enforcement. As for what grounds - you'll need to help us to help you. Are there any reasons you believe that you don't owe the money? You haven't really told us much about the incident - did the driver pay for their parking? If not, why not?

A quick Google suggests info@dinecroft.co.uk may well put you in touch with the owners.

Quote
Also upon calling under what ground do I tell them to cancel the PCN?
I wouldn't recommend 'telling' them to do anything - instead you ought to ask politely. If you fail the attitude test they'll probably just tell you to take it up with Civil Enforcement. As for what grounds - you'll need to help us to help you. Are there any reasons you believe that you don't owe the money? You haven't really told us much about the incident - did the driver pay for their parking? If not, why not?

I'll email info@dinecroft.com asking to be put in touch with owners. Will this not effect my half price payment offer if not appealed?