Author Topic: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour  (Read 3892 times)

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Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
« Reply #15 on: »
The NtK does fail to fully comply with all the requirements of PoFA.

It is your money and your conscience. However, why exactly would you not wish to go to court over this matter if you think you may be unfairly charged even if you are not liable for that charge?

There are many misconceptions about going to “court”. This is not a criminal matter. It is a civil matter that would be dealt with in the county court. There is no “prosecution” and no “offence” has been committed.

Just in case you are imagining “Rumpole of the Bailey”, here is a short video of what actually happens in a small claims hearing:

Small claim court video link:

https://youtu.be/n93eoaxhzpU?feature=shared
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
« Reply #16 on: »
Hi

I have now received a Parking Charge Notice Reminder.

https://imgur.com/a/h5nj92z

What I noted is that the reminder notice does not have a statement passing the charge from the driver to the keeper if the driver is unknown. Is this usual, and does it change the original notice at all?

Should I wish to contest the charge to the driver, would it be best to do nothing and wait it out or to appeal?

Thank you

Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
« Reply #17 on: »
The reminder is essentially discretionary, they don't need to send one, and as such there is no prescribed content as such.

It is the original notice that is important.

If you plan to fight the matter my personal view is that you should appeal rather than waiting for them to sue you.

Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
« Reply #18 on: »
The reminder is essentially discretionary, they don't need to send one, and as such there is no prescribed content as such.

It is the original notice that is important.

If you plan to fight the matter my personal view is that you should appeal rather than waiting for them to sue you.

Thank you

Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
« Reply #19 on: »
Where has it been suggested that the PCN is not appealed??
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
« Reply #20 on: »
Where has it been suggested that the PCN is not appealed??

Given that the Parking Eye appeals process is managed internally, I anticipated that the majority of appeals would be rejected, making it seem almost futile to attempt one. However, I have just submitted an appeal using some of the wording you provided—thank you for that.

Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
« Reply #21 on: »
Appeals are routinely rejected. But when they do reject, you then have a shot at POPLA. It's also often considered a reasonable thing to do - if someone writes to you demanding money, and you don't believe you owe it to them, it's generally considered reasonable to tell them as such and explain why.

Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
« Reply #22 on: »
Appeals are routinely rejected. But when they do reject, you then have a shot at POPLA. It's also often considered a reasonable thing to do - if someone writes to you demanding money, and you don't believe you owe it to them, it's generally considered reasonable to tell them as such and explain why.

Yes, point taken thanks. Should the Parking Eye appeal be rejected then I will appeal to POPLA as suggested. If I may I will post my appeal on here before sending in, just to make sure I have the points down correctly.

Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
« Reply #23 on: »
Just remember, you are appealing as the keeper of the vehicle. What the driver did or didn’t do, can be relayed but there is no legal obligation for the keeper to identify the driver. The keeper, the recipient of the NtK, is known to the operator. The driver, is unknown to the operator.

The keeper and the driver are two separate legal entities. The only way the operator can identify the driver is if the keeper tells them, inadvertently or otherwise.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
« Reply #24 on: »
I would like to provide an update on my situation.

Unfortunately, my appeal to ParkingEye was unsuccessful. I am now preparing to escalate the matter to POPLA and am currently compiling my case.

Based on previous discussions, I understand there are two primary arguments for my defense:

1) The notice does not comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 to hold the registered keeper liable for the charge. Specifically, it fails to "invite" the keeper to pay the charge, as stipulated under paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of the Act. I plan to use the well-worded section kindly provided by b789 above.

2) Additionally, an argument could be made that as parking was forbidden during the times the vehicle was parked, no contract was formed, as no consideration was offered by ParkingEye (the sign isn't making a genuine offer to park for £100 when the store is closed).

For point 2, is there any template or standardised wording I should use? Alternatively, are there any relevant court cases where this argument has been successfully tested that I should reference?

Thank you

Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
« Reply #25 on: »
Yes, there are legal precedents that touch on the idea that no contract is formed when parking is forbidden during certain hours, or when there is no genuine offer of consideration. One key point is the absence of an offer and no consideration when parking is prohibited or when certain conditions, such as a store being closed, are in place.

Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106: In this case, the Court of Appeal ruled that a motorist cannot be deemed to have agreed to the terms of a parking contract if they were unaware of the terms. If parking is prohibited, then the motorist is not accepting an offer but rather breaching a restriction, and no contract is formed.

Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking [1971] 2 QB 163: In this case, Lord Denning held that an offer must be clear and capable of being accepted by the driver. If no clear offer is made, no contract is formed. When parking is expressly prohibited during certain hours or in specific circumstances, no valid offer can be made, thus preventing a contract from being formed.

ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67: This is the leading case on parking charges, but it also reinforces the point that contracts in these situations are formed based on an offer of parking. However, if parking is not permitted at certain times (such as when a store is closed or outside designated hours), no valid offer is made, and no contract can be said to exist. The judgment implies that for a charge to be enforceable, a valid offer and acceptance must be in place, meaning the signage must constitute a genuine offer.

If the signage suggests a punitive charge rather than an offer to park, especially during times when parking is not allowed (such as when the store is closed), then the argument can be made that no contract was formed due to the lack of consideration and the absence of a valid offer.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
« Reply #26 on: »
Yes, there are legal precedents that touch on the idea that no contract is formed when parking is forbidden during certain hours, or when there is no genuine offer of consideration. One key point is the absence of an offer and no consideration when parking is prohibited or when certain conditions, such as a store being closed, are in place.

Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106: In this case, the Court of Appeal ruled that a motorist cannot be deemed to have agreed to the terms of a parking contract if they were unaware of the terms. If parking is prohibited, then the motorist is not accepting an offer but rather breaching a restriction, and no contract is formed.

Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking [1971] 2 QB 163: In this case, Lord Denning held that an offer must be clear and capable of being accepted by the driver. If no clear offer is made, no contract is formed. When parking is expressly prohibited during certain hours or in specific circumstances, no valid offer can be made, thus preventing a contract from being formed.

ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67: This is the leading case on parking charges, but it also reinforces the point that contracts in these situations are formed based on an offer of parking. However, if parking is not permitted at certain times (such as when a store is closed or outside designated hours), no valid offer is made, and no contract can be said to exist. The judgment implies that for a charge to be enforceable, a valid offer and acceptance must be in place, meaning the signage must constitute a genuine offer.

If the signage suggests a punitive charge rather than an offer to park, especially during times when parking is not allowed (such as when the store is closed), then the argument can be made that no contract was formed due to the lack of consideration and the absence of a valid offer.

Thank you so much for your continued help with this appeal, it is very much appreciated. I will therefore submit my appeal to POPLA essentially using your wording/links and also the update you posted previously as supporting evidence.

I'll update again should this go further.

Thanks!

Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
« Reply #27 on: »
You may wish to share a draft before submission.

Also, don't expect POPLA to accept your appeal - not necessarily because it is without merit, but because POPLA rarely go for the 'forbidding signage' argument.

Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
« Reply #28 on: »
You'll need a bit more than that for your POPLA appeal. You seem to be under the assumption that a POPLA assessor is somehow fully legally trained. Absolutely not. You have to lead the by the nose to any point you are trying to make. Think of the as being a bit dimwitted and having to explain in great detail the point you are trying to make.

You should always argue signage, BPA Code of Practice (CoP) breaches, landowner authority.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Parkingeye PCN KFC Portsmouth North Harbour
« Reply #29 on: »
You may wish to share a draft before submission.

Also, don't expect POPLA to accept your appeal - not necessarily because it is without merit, but because POPLA rarely go for the 'forbidding signage' argument.

I have drafted my appeal before submission as follows (basically a cut and paste of prior posts, plus some further explanation)


I would be very grateful for any further pointers before submitting to POPLA. Thanks :)


"I am appealing as the KEEPER of vehicle registered xxxxxxx.
I believe that this ticket has been issued unfairly and wish to contest it based on the following two legal principles concerning contract formation.


Ground 1 - PoFA 9(2)(e)(i) failures


Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of PoFA 2012


This paragraph mandates that for a parking operator to hold the vehicle's registered keeper liable for a parking charge, the Notice to Keeper (NtK) must include:


An "Invitation to Pay": The notice must explicitly invite the keeper to pay the unpaid parking charges.


Exact Wording: The wording must clearly convey this invitation and mere implication or indirect suggestions are insufficient. The act requires strict compliance, meaning that any failure to fully incorporate this invitation renders the notice non-compliant with the requirements of PoFA 2012.


Non-Compliance Issue: The NtK fails to include a clear "invitation to pay", or any synonym of the word "invitation", this omission is a breach of Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i). Even if the notice suggests that payment is required, without an explicit invitation directed towards the keeper to settle the charge, the notice does not meet the exacting requirements of PoFA 2012.


Significance of Full Compliance


Strict Liability: The law mandates full and exact compliance with the specified wording and content outlined in PoFA 2012.


Partial or even Substantial Compliance Insufficient: Even if the notice largely complies with other requirements, the absence of a clear invitation to the keeper to pay is a significant flaw. The operator cannot rely on partial or even substantial compliance — every element as specified in the legislation must be present and correct.


Consequences for the Operator


Challenge Basis: If the notice is found to lack this crucial element, it can be used as a basis to challenge the parking charge.


Keeper Liability: The operator cannot transfer liability to the keeper.


Conclusion


In summary, the PCN does not include an explicit "invitation" for the keeper to pay the charge and therefore is not fully compliant with Schedule 4, Paragraph 9(2)(e)(i) of PoFA 2012. Since the law demands strict adherence, any omission, even if minor, invalidates the notice and relieves the keeper of any obligation to pay.



Ground 2 – Parking was forbidden during the times the vehicle was parked, thus no contract was formed as no consideration was offered by Parking Eye (the sign isn’t making a genuine offer to park for £100 when the store is closed)


For a contract to be formed, there must be a valid offer and acceptance, as well as consideration.


In this case, no contract can be formed when parking is explicitly prohibited during certain hours or under certain conditions.


Where parking is forbidden, there is no genuine offer being made to park the vehicle.


Consequently, without an offer, there can be no consideration, as the driver is not receiving any benefit for which they would be expected to give something in return.


By issuing this parking charge, it implies that a contract has been formed between the driver and the parking operator.
However, as parking was not permitted at the time, no such contract could exist.


When parking is prohibited, the mere presence of signage indicating restricted parking cannot be deemed an offer to contract, and therefore, any such charge is unenforceable due to the absence of mutual agreement and consideration.


There are legal precedents that touch on the idea that no contract is formed when parking is forbidden during certain hours, or when there is no genuine offer of consideration. One key point is the absence of an offer and no consideration when parking is prohibited or when certain conditions, such as a store being closed, are in place.


Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106: In this case, the Court of Appeal ruled that a motorist cannot be deemed to have agreed to the terms of a parking contract if they were unaware of the terms. If parking is prohibited, then the motorist is not accepting an offer but rather breaching a restriction, and no contract is formed.


Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking [1971] 2 QB 163: In this case, Lord Denning held that an offer must be clear and capable of being accepted by the driver. If no clear offer is made, no contract is formed. When parking is expressly prohibited during certain hours or in specific circumstances, no valid offer can be made, thus preventing a contract from being formed.


ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67: This is the leading case on parking charges, but it also reinforces the point that contracts in these situations are formed based on an offer of parking. However, if parking is not permitted at certain times (such as when a store is closed or outside designated hours), no valid offer is made, and no contract can be said to exist. The judgment implies that for a charge to be enforceable, a valid offer and acceptance must be in place, meaning the signage must constitute a genuine offer.


Conclusion
Parking was prohibited during the times the vehicle was parked, thus no contract was formed as no consideration was offered by Parking Eye. Hence the PCN is unenforceable due to the absence of mutual agreement and consideration.



I kindly request that you review both grounds I am contesting the PCN against."