Author Topic: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea  (Read 163 times)

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Sander333

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Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
« on: January 31, 2025, 01:21:30 pm »
The Registered keeper has received a Parking charge notice issued to the driver of a motor vehicle for parking not wholly in parking bay in an Industrial Estate. Upon entering the estate there are no signs to indicate that the Estate is private land.The driver wanted to visit Toolstation and upon driving into the parking bay noticed a parking sign left the vehicle not wholly parked in the bay in order to read the sign which indicated that the vehicle must be parked within the bay. The driver returned to vehicle  and decided to move it. They did not see or was approached by any person. The parking charge notice received just provides a time of incident i.e. 1402 there are no times provided for observation of the vehicle parked. As I understand it there should be a grace period to be observed in order to ensure that the terms have been read and agreed to.
I will post up PCN and signs asap
« Last Edit: January 31, 2025, 01:23:44 pm by Sander333 »

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b789

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Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2025, 02:27:09 pm »
A close up of the sign is not enough. It also needs to show the general layout of the parking area and how the signs appear on approach. As this is in Wales, are you a Welsh speaker? Are the signs also in Welch?

The Notice to Keeper (NtK) is not PoFA compliant. The Keeper cannot be liable as long as the unknown driver's identity is not revealed. There is no legal obligation on the known keeper (the recipient of the Notice to Keeper (NtK)) to reveal the identity of the unknown driver and no inference or assumptions can be made.

The NtK is not compliant with all the requirements of PoFA which means that if the unknown driver is not identified, they cannot transfer liability for the charge from the unknown driver to the known keeper.

Use the following as your appeal. No need to embellish or remove anything from it:

Quote
I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, you are unable to hold the keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. UKCPM has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable. UKCPM have no hope at IAS, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.

Come back when PCMUK reject the appeal for further advice.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Sander333

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Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2025, 04:10:11 pm »
As it happens I am a Welsh Speaker and a number of private car parks have bilingual signs. I will return to the site shortly over the next day or so but from my recollection the signs are not bilingual. Thank you for the advice so far.When is the best time to send off an appeal is it sooner rather than later.

DWMB2

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Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2025, 04:15:05 pm »
There's no strategic advantage to be gained from timing your appeal one way or the other.

Sander333

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Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2025, 11:26:12 am »
The Registered Keeper has return to the area and has taken photographs of the area.
What is of particular concern is that the signs which are interspersed over the area are adjacent to the ground. They are not fixed and upon inspection can be rotated around the metal barrier pole so they can be difficult to see especially when there are vehicles particularly vans which frequent tool station are parked directly in front of them. If all the parking spaces were used where the signers are placed you would not see them. as all vehicles would obstruct the signs being on the floor. If they were placed higher on the building for example like the sings for customer only parking then they would probably  more visible. These signs could easily be removed and replaced in a few seconds. Any views on these observations. As one can see this sign and others are not in the Welsh language.

b789

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Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2025, 05:37:21 pm »
It is a joke. There is no way UKCPM can ever hope to recover anything for this "invoice" they have sent the Keeper. However, as they are IPC members, you will probably have to drag this out all the pay to a county court claim.

That is a good thing because the county court is the ultimate dispute resolution service and if they were to take this all the way, they would receive a thorough spanking in court. They won't though. They will try litigation in the hope the you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and will cave in and pay up once litigation starts, out of ignorance and fear.

For now, simply appeal with the following as the Keeper only (They have no idea who the driver is unless you tell them and you are under no legal obligation to do so):

Quote
I am the keeper of the vehicle and I dispute your 'parking charge'. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012 or the BPA/IPC Private Parking Single Code of Practice (PPSCoP), you are unable to hold the Keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn. UKCPM has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only.

The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your NtK can only hold the driver liable. UKCPM may be relying on the kangaroo court that is the IAS to back them up over this sham PCN, but the Keeper is quite prepared to go straight to litigation if it isn’t cancelled and will be more than happy to see UKCPM humiliated in court should they be so stupid as to push this that far.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Sander333

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Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2025, 11:27:49 am »
Thanks for advice will submit appeal tomorrow morning. Just for clarification there are no information/warning signs when entering Industrial Estate to indicate that the area subject to private parking restrictions.

b789

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Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2025, 02:05:26 pm »
If you can get a phot of the entrance to the parking area showing no signs, that is worth keeping handy. However, I doubt that these will ever be needed.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Sander333

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Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2025, 02:35:41 pm »
Yes will take some additional photos as above within the next day or so.

Sander333

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Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2025, 04:31:51 pm »
Appeal submitted the Registered Keeper has re visited the Industrial Estate to gather further information. There are two entrances to enter the estate one entrance has a very small sign on the offside of the road when entering which is difficult to read or notice when driving. The other entrance has no signs at all except a small sign on the wall saying the road is private under section 31 of the Highways Act 1980 and to use it with consent of the owner. There are also 20mph speed limit signs at the entrance. This is totally confusing to say the least. There are a number of photographs taken for your information and any observations.

Sander333

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Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2025, 04:34:39 pm »
There are some additional photos

Sander333

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Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2025, 04:37:48 pm »
Thanks in anticipation

b789

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Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2025, 04:39:27 pm »


Just keep alll the photos, just in case they're ever needed. (unlikely)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2025, 04:41:47 pm by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

mickR

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Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2025, 04:41:31 pm »
I think it's the 20mph sign visible in one of the other pics

Sander333

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Re: Parking charge Cwmdu Industrial Estate Gendros Swansea
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2025, 04:59:24 pm »
Yes that is correct it is the post where the 20mph sign is on