Author Topic: p4parking - southern housing private residents' parking PCNs after SIPPI transition confusion  (Read 4519 times)

0 Members and 43 Guests are viewing this topic.

b789, how does the situation change regarding the lease agreement considering that it is my father that owns the lease, I live with him, and I am the registered keeper of the car. My father is named on the car insurance and the digital permit for the car is in his name.

Do I need to somehow argue that the rights provided by the lease extend to me? How would that be done without talking about who the driver was? Would I need to include some kind of written statement from my father saying that he uses the vehicle or gives it permission to be parked there, or is his inclusion on the insurance / digital parking permit in his name sufficient?

The lease does not mention any requirement for permits—physical or electronic—for use of the car parking spaces. That is not merely an implication; it is a legal fact. Under property law:

• What is not expressly required in the lease cannot be imposed unilaterally.
• Any attempt to enforce a permit scheme without leaseholder consent or lease amendment is void and unenforceable.

The leaseholder’s right to use the car parking spaces is governed solely by the lease terms. The only obligation is to keep the spaces clear of obstructions and unroadworthy vehicles.

As confirmed by legal commentary on leaseholder parking rights:

"Car parking rights granted in a lease may include exclusive possession or a general right to park. If the lease does not specify a permit requirement, none can be imposed without formal amendment or agreement".

So rather than saying the clause "implies" permission, the stronger and more accurate position is:

The lease grants use of the car parking spaces and contains no clause requiring permits. Therefore, any permit scheme is legally irrelevant to leaseholders and unenforceable against them.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

So I just received an NtK in the post, but this relates to a _third_ PCN (from the 2nd, a day between the other two on 1st and 3rd), one for which there was never even a notice on the windscreen. I guess the charitable explanation would be a strong gust of wind or a mischievous magpie..

I think I'm outside of the informal appeal window? The appeals portal doesn't let me appeal. It seems insane that they can send the NtK after the appeals window has closed, as if a ticket on a windscreen is a reliable way to inform someone of a parking charge..

Is there anything that can be done with this one?


Oh wait my bad, the 28 day appeals window should open again from the date of the NtK right? Am I going to have to waste a stamp on these cowboys?

Also what on earth are they doing bumping the charge up by £25 in the NtK? That's goes against PoFA right?


« Last Edit: August 08, 2025, 04:30:02 pm by beansprout »

Only the “Creditor” can issue a PoFA-compliant Notice to Keeper (NtK). This is a requirement under Paragraph 8(2) of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, which states that the notice must be given by or on behalf of the creditor.

In this case, the named Creditor is P4Parking (UK) Ltd, but the NtK was issued by TNC Parking Services, which is a third-party debt collector and not the Creditor. Although the notice identifies the Creditor and includes the required content, it was issued in the name of TNC, not P4Parking.

Because TNC is not the Creditor and has no statutory authority under PoFA to issue the notice, the NtK is not valid for the purposes of holding the keeper liable. Even if the timing and content were otherwise correct, only the Creditor can issue a valid PoFA notice. Keeper liability does not apply.

TNC is ONLY allowed to lawfully engage in debt recovery for parking charges. They can potentially request keeper data as an authorised agent of a BPA member for the narrow purpose of recovering outstanding charges.

However, because they're not an operator, they are not entitled to issue a PoFA-compliant Notice to Keeper under Paragraph 8 Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act. Only BPA-approved operators, like P4Parking, can issue such notices.

Unity t/a TNC is limited to debt collection—they lack enforcement powers. They are likely authorised under P4Parking’s BPA AOS membership only to request keeper data for debt purposes, not to issue NtKs or notices under PoFA.

Their use of the BPA roundel may be permissible, but only when acting strictly within the scope of debt recovery. If they present as an operator or issue legal notices like an NtK, that exceeds the permitted role.

In short: TNC may access data for debt recovery, as an agent of the operator, but cannot issue Notices to Keeper or enforce parking charges under PoFA.

SO, to summarise your legal position:

• The Keeper (you) is not the leaseholder, but the vehicle is associated with the leaseholder (your father), and he holds parking rights under the lease.
• There is no express requirement in the lease for a permit or for participation in any scheme operated by P4Parking.
• TNC is not the parking operator, nor are they legally permitted to issue PoFA-compliant NtKs.
• No valid NtD was found on the vehicle, and PoFA Paragraph 9 applies if no NtD was served — but the notice received is based on Paragraph 8, indicating that an NtD allegedly was served.
• Since no driver has been identified, and keeper liability under PoFA is not established, no liability can be enforced against the Keeper.

You should appeal with the following:

Quote
Subject: Re: Notice to Keeper – PCN [insert reference number] – Vehicle Registration: [XXXXXXX]
Dear Sir/Madam,

I write as the Registered Keeper in response to your Notice to Keeper dated [insert date].

I deny any liability for this charge. This is not a valid Notice to Keeper under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) for the following reasons:

1. The notice was issued by TNC Parking Services, not the Creditor. Only the Creditor named in the notice (P4Parking UK Ltd) may issue a PoFA-compliant NtK. TNC, being a third-party debt collector and not a party to the alleged contract, lacks standing to pursue keeper liability.

2.You rely on Paragraph 8 of Schedule 4 of PoFA, which only applies where a valid Notice to Driver (NtD) was affixed to the vehicle. I put you to strict proof that such a notice was served in compliance with PoFA requirements. Absent such proof, your reliance on Paragraph 8 is misconceived, and the notice is not valid for the purpose of establishing keeper liability.

3. I am a resident of the estate and my father is the leaseholder. He holds a lease that makes no mention of any permit requirement, enforcement scheme, or delegation of authority to third parties such as P4Parking. There is no obligation in the lease to display a permit, and no contractual relationship exists between the parties and P4Parking.

4. I am a resident of the estate, and the leaseholder has authorised the vehicle to be parked at the premises. The lease contains no requirement to display a permit and confers no authority for third-party enforcement. There is no contractual relationship between the leaseholder or any authorised resident and P4Parking, and no lawful basis for enforcing terms contrary to the lease.

5. Your continued pursuit of this charge may constitute a breach of the UK General Data Protection Regulation (UK GDPR). You are not entitled to process my personal data in the absence of lawful basis under either PoFA or a legitimate contractual framework. Misuse of DVLA data and false claims of keeper liability will be referred to the Information Commissioner’s Office and DVLA.

Accordingly, you must now:

• Cancel this charge in full,
• Cease processing my data for this or any related matter,
• Confirm that no further correspondence will be sent regarding this charge.

Failure to do so may result in a formal complaint to the DVLA and the ICO, as well as potential legal action for misuse of personal data.

Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Super grateful as always b789

Any thoughts on who I should be sending that reply to and via what medium? Is it an informal appeal to p4parking expecting a POPLA code? I'm guessing I'd have to send that by post.. or could I just chuck it at sales@p4parking.co.uk do you think?

Send it to both P4 and TNC. One of them ought to provide you with a POPLA code when they automatically reject any initial appeal.

Don't waste money on postage. Respond by email if possible, CC'ing yourself into any correspondence or you can use their web portal if they have one. Under no circumstances select any option that admits liability. You are ONLY appealing as the Keeper.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

OP, YOU don't send anything in your name in respect of this NTK because it's not addressed to you.

I'll keep on this point and YOU must keep this in mind: the more you write here and on your own behalf the more likely it is that YOU will identify the driver, and if you do then if matters are taken to court your main defence in law as regards PoFA has gone.

The addressee may authorise you to act on their behalf (I think on a case-by-case basis). Once you've produced a template letter e.g. I hereby authorise [your name  ] to act on my behalf as registered keeper of VRM ***** and leaseholder of [property] in all matters pertaining to your NTD/NTK no. ******, dated *******.

Signed********

Then you may engage with whoever the notice requires and include the authorisation.

Normal forum rules are one thread per notice and this one now has 2 with possibly more to follow. If this remains then you'll have to be clear which is which. You'll need something because so far as far as the 'creditor' is concerned you've identified yourself as being the keeper(for the NTD) and now someone authorised by the keeper.

b789, how does the situation change regarding the lease agreement considering that it is my father that owns the lease, I live with him, and I am the registered keeper of the car. My father is named on the car insurance and the digital permit for the car is in his name.

The OP is the RK. The notices are addressed to them.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Thanks for clarifying, I said it's confusing!

So OP, you can act in your own name as regards parking charges but only your father may act internally with Southern Housing. So when you refer to 'attempts were made to contact Southern Housing', by whom? Similarly, any application for a permit, even for purely administrative purposes, doesn't lie with you.




Ok, well good news on the first 2 PCNs, got confirmation today that Southern Housing / p4parking have cancelled them

Quote
Thank you for your email and enquiry.

I can confirm 8086329 & 8084695 are both cancelled.

8086309 is with debt collectors.

Kind Regards,
p4parking

TNC say that p4parking only accept appeals by post at this stage?

8086309 is with debt collectors.
They say this as if this means it is in the lap of the gods and entirely outside of their control - they're the ones who have engaged said debt collectors!

I've sent an email to complaints@p4parking.co.uk with b789's suggested appeal.

The auto-reply says:

Quote
An appeal can be lodged online at https://p4parking.zatappeal.com/ or by post to P4Parking (UK) Ltd., Po Box 71107, London, SE18 9LB (for Scotland Appeals: P4Parking (UK) Ltd., Po Box 15688, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH48 9BS) only within 28 days from the date of the notice to driver.

Sounds like they're just going to say it's too late to appeal and wont issue a POPLA code?

Ok, POPLA code received..

https://ibb.co/album/5kYQ7C

Was curious to see what the photos showed seeing as the 2nd PCN was never found on the windscreen, can definitely see on days 2 and 3, there were only 2 PCNs, but obviously hard to tell if one was pulled off the windscreen by someone, or if the 2rd pcn was never actually placed there. They do seem remarkably similarly positioned (text upside down), but the PCN inside the envelope seems slightly differently positioned, so I'm guessing it went missing at some point between days 2 and 3




Ok, trying to get the property management company to contact p4parking to cancel the final ticket has been like pulling teeth, so seeing as tomorrow is the last day for me to submit a POPLA appeal (I think that's right? Issued on the 1st, 28 days makes 28th the final day?).. looking like I'm going to have to send something.

Should my appeal be pretty much the points suggested here? https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/p4parking-southern-housing-private-estate-parking-pcns-after-sippi-transition-co/msg84814/#msg84814

In terms of evidence, will I have to try and dig out evidence of transfer of lease, or would it be enough to just send the lease itself which doesn't have my father's name? Should I add a signed letter from my father saying that it is a shared vehicle? Or do I maybe just attach a copy of the car insurance with the estate address and his name listed as named driver?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2025, 12:31:40 pm by beansprout »

Also, is the fact that the signage had been removed and replaced with signage from a new parking company by the time I received the NtK itself a ground for appeal? How am I supposed to gather evidence if it no longer exists to be photographed? It makes the process unfair and one-sided.