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Liability notice without receiving parking charge first, dropping off passenger
Posted by ashirusnw on 22 May, 2024 12:55 -
Hi my car was parked in apprently private bays.
Their photos show the car was stopped for 10 minutes, however the driver
It was a genuine mistake as the road itself isn't private and the driver didn't realise these bays were not public (they were all empty at the time) and she intended to be there for a short while to drop off a disabled passenger which took 10 minutes. (There was no blue badge displayed which in any event would apprently require some sort of permit from the operator).
As registered keeper, I didn't receive the actual Parking Charge notice but I did get this "keeper liability notice":
We were parked where the white car is parked in this (recent) photo:
So clearly just under a sign stating the parking restrictions.
Here's the signage itself:
Street view location
Any hope of getting off?
I'm not familiar with the process and deadlines for appealing these types of tickets.
thanks,
Ash -
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You won't be paying a penny to UKCPM if you follow the advice. Are you sure you did not receive the original NtK? It would be worthwhile seeing both sides of that as it is the key document to be able to see whether all the legal requirements to hold you liable as the keeper.
A few more questions though first. Was the driver or passenger in possession of a blue badge, irrespective of whether it was shown or not? At what time of day was this? Daylight or darkness?
The first thing that stand out are the signage is terrible. It is almost impossible to read that wall of text and there is no way that the charge is adequately brought to the attention of the driver. Secondly, loading/unloading or picking up/dropping off a passenger is not parking and that is defined in the persuasive appeal court judgment of Jopson v Homeguard B9GF09AE [2016].
Unfortunately, you are dealing with a particularly vexatious company of ex-clamper thugs and it is too late to do any appeals. You will have to weather a storm of debt collector letter which you can safely ignore. They are powerless to do anything, no matter how nasty they threaten you. Just file them or use them as kindling.
You will have to wait until/if/when they decide to make a claim against you. Whilst we haven't seen the original NtK, it is advised that any communication we suggest is made as the keeper of the vehicle. UKPCM have no idea of the drivers identity unless you, the keeper tells them. The keeper and the driver are two separate entities in civil law and no inference or assumptions can be made that the keeper was also the driver.
Was the person that was dropped off at the location an owner or tenant? If so, what does their lease/AST say about parking? What it doesn't say is equally important.
Anyway, a few questions for you to answer in there before we move on. -
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The sign clearly says the driver is liable. If the RK doesn't reveal who the driver was then there's nothin they can do about it.
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The sign clearly says the driver is liable. If the RK doesn't reveal who the driver was then there's nothin they can do about it.
The driver is always liable. If the PPC issues an NtK to the keeper that is fully compliant with the strict requirements of PoFA, then they can transfer that liability from the driver to the keeper.
We always tell victims to not identify the driver as almost always there is a technical flaw in the NtKs that can invalidate the compliance with the requirements of PoFA. -
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Are you sure you did not receive the original NtK? It would be worthwhile seeing both sides of that as it is the key document to be able to see whether all the legal requirements to hold you liable as the keeper
Pretty sure but can't I simply ask them for a copy of it?A few more questions though first. Was the driver or passenger in possession of a blue badge, irrespective of whether it was shown or not? At what time of day was this? Daylight or darkness?
Yes they were in possession of BB. It was in the morning, daylight.The first thing that stand out are the signage is terrible. It is almost impossible to read that wall of text and there is no way that the charge is adequately brought to the attention of the driver. Secondly, loading/unloading or picking up/dropping off a passenger is not parking and that is defined in the persuasive appeal court judgment of Jopson v Homeguard B9GF09AE [2016].
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... it is too late to do any appeals. You will have to weather a storm of debt collector letter which you can safely ignore.
You will have to wait until/if/when they decided to make a claim against you.
You mean go to court? I don't think I will be doing so over £100 and I'll have to fight their extra charges too!Was the person that was dropped off at the location an owner or tenant? If so, what does their lease/AST say about parking? What it doesn't say is equally important.
Hi sorry should have been clearer. The passenger has nothing to do with the adjacent residential buildings, they were being dropped off at the nearby school on Stratford Rd.
Than you! -
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If you think you can get them to send you a copy of the original NtK, then by all means do so but I doubt the'll be that cooperative unless you do it as a SAR and then they have 30 days with which to provide it.
I'm glad you are prepared to fight the in court if necessary. That is where you ultimately win anyway. It is very straightforward and easy to respond and defend any claim.We will be assisting you every step of the way. They will only go all the way to a hearing if they think you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree. If you're here getting advice, then you aren't.
As one of the occupants of the vehicle had a blue badge and the driver was only dropping off a passenger, there should be a letter of complaint to PCM for the record. They will then be on notice that if they continue to pursue the keeper, they will know that the occupant had protected characteristics and extra time should have been allowed as required under the Equality Act 2010.
If you want to draft something to show us and we can then advise on any changes. Any correspondence is to be as the keeper only. It is a learning experience for you. -
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Hi many thanks, I'm here to learn as well as fight this if possible
I probably wasn't clear I meant to say I don't want to fight in court as it's not worth the day off work and the stress of having to watch my post for legally-binding letters all for £100 + their extra charges that they'll throw in by that stage.
But I'd like to fight it if there's a very good chance of one of the following:
1. If there no chance of appeal now, I'm hoping there's a standard procedure for complaining to PCM that we didn't get the NtK and resetting the clock (similar to sending a TE9 to the TEC for a council PCN), or a procedure to get the whole thing considered via POPLA?
2. If i write to PCM with the circumstances that they'll eventually just shut up without going ot court
3. Or, if it does go all the way to court, by submitting a written defence which I don't have to be present in court for, and which will definitely be seen and considered by the magistrate and without incurring court fees.
keep up the good work!
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Also I doubt I can find proof positive that the disabled passenger in question was there on that date and time. I don't think there's a record that I can get hold of (from past experience, this school's sign-in system is hit and miss). So it would be my word against theirs in court.
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I think you may be under the misapprehension that you are dealing with a parking company that has a customer service ethos. They are ex-clamper thugs whose only interest is in how much they can scam you for.
There are no "magistrates" involved in the process should it ever go as far a hearing. This is not a criminal matter. It is a contractual dispute under civil law. There is no "Rumple of the Bailey". It is county court in the small claims track.
If it ever got that far, here is short video that shows you what to expect on the day of a hearing, assuming it is not by telephone or video link:
https://youtu.be/n93eoaxhzpU
Anyway, we are a long way off anything like that happening. More often than not, they will file a claim in the hope that the defendant is low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and will poop their pants at the first sign of a court claim and pay up. In our experience, depending on which roboclaim solicitor they use, they will discontinue before any hearing as they really don't want a spanking from the judge for their unscrupulous methods and breaches of various statutes, laws and codes of practice. -
Agree x 1
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