Author Topic: Invitation to pay Parking Charge  (Read 1664 times)

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Re: Invitation to pay Parking Charge
« Reply #15 on: »
Ok, I will replace with your draft, much appreciated.

Re: Invitation to pay Parking Charge
« Reply #16 on: »
OP, why not make their failure clear?

I do not understand why reference to a PoFA failure is so vague. If you want to tempt them into calling your bluff i.e. you've picked up a phrase from somewhere and don't understand a word of it, then IMO this is the way to do it.

I notice that your PCN Notice to Keeper was issued on 25 April and that the alleged breach occurred on 7th. This period of 18 days exceeds the maximum period prescribed by law, 14 days, and therefore you are unable in any circumstances to hold the keeper liable for any parking charge for which the driver might be liable.


We have to take it on trust that your previous communications with the PPC have not given them any genuine reason to believe that you were the driver. If they do, then they might think their ruse has won the day i.e. send a PCN which isn't PoFA compliant and hope the keeper drags victory(for the creditor) from the jaws of defeat.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2024, 01:55:17 pm by H C Andersen »
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Re: Invitation to pay Parking Charge
« Reply #17 on: »
Fully understand your comments, and they make perfect sense. There has been no communication regarding the driver's identity, just a request to ask for enhanced pictures and signage.

Regards 

Re: Invitation to pay Parking Charge
« Reply #18 on: »
So, i appealed the parking charge, and this is what i got back from Park with Ease.

Appeal: Were you the keeper : Yes
Were you the driver : No

I note from your correspondence that you are not seeking to hold me liable as the registered keeper, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("The Act"). You have chosen not to issue a Notice to Keeper in accordance with The Act, and it is now too late for you to do so. As there is no obligation for me to name the driver, I will not be doing so. I am therefore unable to help you further with this matter and look forward to your confirmation that the charge has been cancelled.




Response

Thank you for your email

 

Upon entering the site you entered into a contract to pay for the parking that was due at the time or up to 48 hours following your departure (online) or pay a parking charge notice (reduced if paid within 14 days).

 

The signage on site clearly states that charges are in place 24 hours a day on all days and apply to all vehicles. There are 5 signs on this site, including 1 on the entry, 1 on the exit and one by the kiosk. Our signage has been audited by The IPC our Accredited Trade Association and is fully compliant.

 

We have invited you to inform us who the driver at the time was. We do have images of the vehicle entering the site and should we need to we may choose to get the images enhanced in order to present them as evidence in court should you choose to allow the matter get that far.

 

We have not claimed to and are not seeking to use POFA 2012 to pursue the matter, therefore we have no requirement to issue any letters within 14 days.

 

Since you failed to pay for the parking that was due at the time or up to 48 hours following your departure and were over the advertised grace period the parking charge notice has been issued correctly.

 

You can pay your parking charge notice online at www.parkwithease.co.uk or by sending a cheque or postal order to Park With Ease, Unit 15 Duttons Business Park, Dock Road, Northwich, Cheshire, CW9 5HJ.

 

The Independent Appeals Service (www.theIAS.org) provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type. As you have complied with our internal appeals procedure you may use, and we will engage with, the IAS Standard Appeals Service providing you lodge an appeal to them within 21 days of this rejection.

 

If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to the Independent Appeals Service (IAS). In order to appeal the IAS will need your parking charge number, your vehicle registration and the date the charge was originally issued.

 

Please note, the 14 day reduced period is not held whilst an appeal is in place.

Re: Invitation to pay Parking Charge
« Reply #19 on: »
Typical response from a scammer who is hoping you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with an appeal to the IPC but others will disagree. You are dealing with an incestuous cabal and they are definitely not independent. You should realise that less than 4% of IAS appeals are upheld.

If you do appeal to them, you should highlight the fact that they cannot transfer liability from the driver to you the keeper, by their own admission, and so, in the absence of evidence that you were also the driver, the PCN should be cancelled. Good luck.

You can safely ignore their threat to use "images of the vehicle entering the site and should we need to we may choose to get the images enhanced in order to present them as evidence in court should you choose to allow the matter get that far." They are not the police and cannot forensically use the images captured on an ANPR to try and identify anyone. Even if they had a clear picture of the driver, they have no way of identifying you. There is no magical unicorn database with everyone's photo and personal detail they can access.

They simply have no way of identifying you as the driver unless you tell them it was you. If they were to try and use an ANPR picture to do so, they would be breaching your GDPR and a number of other laws. That sentence is simply put there to try and intimidate you into paying into their scam.

In the likely event that the IAS refuse your appeal, you just wait this out. They would be very foolish to try and actually take you to court as the keeper without any proof you were the driver.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Invitation to pay Parking Charge
« Reply #20 on: »
I'm usually of a similar opinion to b789 regarding the IAS, but of the few appeals I have seen them accept, pretty much all of them have been ones like this where there is a very obvious lack of PoFA compliance. In this case enhanced further by the parking company directly stating they're not using it.

If it were me in receipt of the charge I'd give the IAS a go, as it costs nothing to try, and if successful brings an end to the matter without having to watch your incoming post for the next 6 years.

Re: Invitation to pay Parking Charge
« Reply #21 on: »
I am not worried by their claims, I was more interested in the fact that they state they are not compliant with POFA 2012. I did however notice, at the beginning of their sentence they stated "You" when I have already told them I was not the driver, only the keeper. A very big assumption given I have the highest rate of personal independent payments, given I am unable to take unfamiliar journeys without support. Anybody could have been driving my car that day, given I do not use it often because of what I just stated. It is often borrowed by other people.   

Re: Invitation to pay Parking Charge
« Reply #22 on: »
I did however notice, at the beginning of their sentence they stated "You" when I have already told them I was not the driver, only the keeper. 

I wouldn't worry about that. Just typical male-bovine excrement from an ex-clamper thug out to scam you. If you want to give them some grief, you could respond to them with a complaint that they have mendaciously responded to your appeal as though you were the driver when, in fact, you have admitted no such thing.

Anyone can drive any vehicle as long as they have the owners permission and they have their own third party liability insurance.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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Re: Invitation to pay Parking Charge
« Reply #23 on: »
I wouldn't get drawn into this detail, IMO it's a distraction. Otherwise the comments regarding the nature of the beast are accurate.

But I think you should get this in front of the IAS. But remember, the assessor won't cancel the charge because its validity has nothing to do with Schedule 4 to PoFA which is concerned solely with whether a keeper or hirer could be held liable for the charge in lieu of the driver and not the charge itself. And you cannot offer a defence against the charge in this case because you weren't driving!

I'd be interested to know from DWMB2 of the wording of successful IAS appeal decisions on this point.

Dear Sir,
PCN **********
I am submitting this appeal as keeper of the vehicle concerned.

I was not the driver on the day and therefore have no comment regarding the validity of tne parking charge itself.

The only issue at large in this appeal is whether the creditor may rely upon Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and enforce this charge against the keeper should they fail to obtain payment of the charge from the driver.

Their letter dated **** rejecting my initial appeal contains the following statement:

We have not claimed to and are not seeking to use POFA 2012 to pursue the matter, therefore we have no requirement to issue any letters within 14 days.

I will not argue against this statement which means that the creditor may not enforce against the keeper and I ask the assessor to instruct the creditor on this point.

They remain free to pursue me as driver, which their letter implies(quite improperly given that they quite literally don't know me from Adam). However, I would welcome, but cannot require, a comment from the assessor regarding the creditor's implied threat given the evidence they hold about the driver's identity. 

Some thoughts.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2024, 03:16:40 pm by H C Andersen »
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Re: Invitation to pay Parking Charge
« Reply #24 on: »
Quote
I'd be interested to know from DWMB2 of the wording of successful IAS appeal decisions on this point.
The cases would have been on Pepipoo unfortunately, although I can't imagine the wording would have been much different from POPLA appeals made on similar points. I just remember seeing quite a small handful that succeeded when we assumed otherwise (there were suggestions they were trying to be seen to be cleaning up their act in anticipation of the upcoming government regulation...)

Quote
They remain free to pursue me as driver
I'm not sure I'd say this, as the OP has made clear in his appeal that he was not the driver. There's a risk the parking company or the IAS would jump on this point.

Re: Invitation to pay Parking Charge
« Reply #25 on: »
The above is good, except for that last sentence: "They remain free to pursue me as driver, which their letter implies(quite improperly given that they quite literally don't know me from Adam)."

I would suggest that you change that to something along these lines:

They remain free to pursue me under the assumption that I was the driver as in their mendacious response to my initial appeal. However, we both know that would not stand up in court. Perhaps the assessor would like to refresh themselves with the details of VCS Limited v Ian Mark Edward H0KF6C9C [2023] and advise the operator to save themselves unnecessary expense should you fail to uphold this appeal.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2024, 03:27:22 pm by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Invitation to pay Parking Charge
« Reply #26 on: »
Again, i am appreciative of all your relies.

Re: Invitation to pay Parking Charge
« Reply #27 on: »
Just a quick update:

I appealed to the IAS and this was their response.

Your appeal to the Independent Appeals Service has now been conceded. The operator will no longer be pursuing the PCN detailed below.

Parking Charge Number (PCN): XXXXXX
Vehicle Registration: XXXXX
Issued By: %operator%

Your Sincerely,
The Independent Appeals Service


Thank you for all your help resolving this matter, it is very much appreciated. I never heard anything back from Park with Ease within the 5-day timescale, so I assume this maybe a default ruling?

Re: Invitation to pay Parking Charge
« Reply #28 on: »
It's a win... I think. You can never tell with the IAS. They are very incestuous with their members. It does sound as though the operator has "conceded" that they had no case.

I think that the reason they do not issue or rely on PoFA for their NtKs is because the location is not on relevant land. The National Park is land under statutory control.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2024, 11:34:01 am by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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Re: Invitation to pay Parking Charge
« Reply #29 on: »
Certainly sounds like a win, good result!

Having a crack with the IAS can be worth it in very clear non-PoFA cases.