Author Topic: Excel Parking PCN - Took longer than 5 minutes to pay - Feethams Leise Car Park, Darlington  (Read 852 times)

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eggybread123

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On the 21st August 2024, upon entering the car park, the driver found a space, parked up, and explored how to pay. The payment took 17 minutes to process as the driver had to locate a machine, take down the code, load the app, find signal of which the driver couldn't until they went to the leisure centre and joined the wifi, whilst getting two children ready to go swimming at the leisure centre. The driver eventually paid for 3 hours parking and left the carpark within 3 hours of arriving into the car park.

On the 30th August i received the parking notice from Excel parking (PDF attached)

As the registered keeper I appealed this charge on the 10/09/2024, albeit as I had misunderstood the charge and thought that the notice was for the driver not paying for parking, of which I have evidence of payment.

On the 21/09/2024 my appeal was dismissed https://imgur.com/a/AH4SrIq

On the 23rd October as registered keeper I was sent a letter from DCBL acting on behalf of Excel Parking https://imgur.com/a/2Sqholq

On the 07 Jan 2025 I was issued a Claim Form for a Civil National Business Centre claim from Excel Parking. Claiming a total £259.40 (£174.40 claim + 35.00 claim fee + 50 legal fee)

I have not corresponded with Excel or DCBL since my initial appeal.

image of signage: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipOXXhGI9hFl-m0svDWjiGtQGdOwbY1vPIguOXQl=s2880-w2880-h1514

google maps street view :https://maps.app.goo.gl/nVCbSWVajRDM3suH8
« Last Edit: January 10, 2025, 05:32:51 pm by eggybread123 »

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Dave65

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This 5 minute to pay is rather ridiculous at times, they have not lost any money through this.
The claim amount would be challenged in any defence against the £70 part as many courts in the past have not aloud this.


b789

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Welcome. Please show us the N1SDT Claim Form you received. Only redact your personal details, the claim number, your VRM and the MCOL password. Leave everything else showing, especially the Particulars of Claim (PoC) and all dates, especially the issue date.

Has Excel issued the claim themselves or have they used a bulk litigator such as Elms Legal or DCB Legal? You will know this by the name in the address for correspondence to send to, if it is not blank.

You have not shown us the original Notice to Keeper (NtK) that was received or the wording you put in your appeal. It helps us to advise accordingly if that information is provided.

This scam by Excel Parking is well known. Your photo of the sign has cropped the terms on the right side which will show the clause requiring payment within 5 minutes of entering the car park although they are repeated in minuscule text near the bottom of the sign. That clause is considered a "penalty clause", (although interpreted by some judges as simply a clause that simply "penalises" the driver. Either way it is easily defended.

Under English law, a penalty clause is one that imposes a detriment on a party for breaching a contract, where that detriment is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss or is disproportionate to any legitimate interest of the other party. A clause that "penalises the driver if they breach it", inherently suggests the clause imposes a penalty for non-compliance. This aligns with the essence of a penalty clause.

Any assertion that the clause "is not a penalty clause" but "penalises the driver" conflates the clause's punitive nature with its enforceability. If the clause's purpose is to penalise rather than compensate for actual loss, it is, by definition, a penalty clause.

In light of Cavendish Square v Makdessi and ParkingEye v Beavis, the clause should be examined as follows:

1. Legitimate Interest:

• Does the 5-minute limit serve a legitimate interest of the parking operator (e.g., ensuring prompt payment or turnover of parking spaces)?

While there may be some legitimate interest, the clause's effect of penalising non-compliance, particularly given the practical impossibility of compliance, suggests it is disproportionate.

2. Proportionality:

• Is the detriment imposed (e.g., a fine or charge) out of proportion to the legitimate interest?

The time limit starting from the ANPR camera entry, combined with the impracticality of complying, means that the clause is unreasonable and therefore, punitive.

3. Practical Feasibility:

• The clause requires actions (finding a space, reading terms, setting up payment) that are almost impossible to complete within 5 minutes. This undermines the fairness of the clause and its enforceability.

Argument as to why the Clause is a Penalty

• The strict 5-minute timeframe effectively sets up drivers to fail, especially considering the logistical realities of parking and reading extensive contractual terms.

• The operator suffers no tangible loss if the payment is made later, undermining any argument that the charge represents a genuine pre-estimate of loss.

• The clause appears to deter breaches rather than protect a legitimate interest, making it punitive and unenforceable.

How to Challenge the Clause if it goes to court

• You would highlight the practical impossibility of complying with the clause, rendering it inherently unfair.

• You would argue that the charge imposed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and is disproportionate to any legitimate interest.

• You would refer to Consumer Rights Act 2015, which requires terms to be fair and transparent. An unachievable requirement is neither.

So, if the clause penalises the driver for breaching it and imposes an unachievable requirement, it is inherently a penalty clause, as its purpose is punitive rather than compensatory or proportional to any legitimate interest.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2025, 11:55:01 am by b789 »
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

eggybread123

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Hello thank you for your reply.

Here at the answers to your points raised:

Please show us the N1SDT Claim Form you received. - https://files.catbox.moe/9iwdm2.pdf

Has Excel issued the claim themselves or have they used a bulk litigator such as Elms Legal or DCB Legal? DCB Legal Ltd

You have not shown us the original Notice to Keeper (NtK) that was received - https://files.catbox.moe/9tgsim.pdf

Appeal wording: unfortunately I did not keep a record of this as I thought it was an admin error and that it was a PCN for the driver not paying, I challenged on this basis saying the driver did pay and I attached proof of payment. It was only when my appeal was rejected that I realised it was the longer than 5 minutes aspect not non payment.

b789

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With an issue date of 7th January, you have until 26th January to submit your Acknowledgement of Service (AoS). Follow the instructions in the linked PDF to submit your AoS:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvqu3bask5m0zir/money-claim-online-How-to-Acknowledge.pdf?dl=0

Having submitted your AoS, you will then have until 4pm on Monday 10th February to submit your defence.

Let us know when you have submitted your defence and we will provide a suitable defence.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

mickR

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Having submitted your AoS, you will then have until 4pm on Monday 10th February to submit your defence.

Let us know when you have submitted your defence and we will provide a suitable defence.

did you mean AoS?
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Mick, you are a very, very bad man
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Dave65

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Excel have a record of this 5 minutes.
There was a small claims case in Sheffield recently about a NHS manager who took 24 minutes to complete his payment on the app.
The judge dismissed the case.

"Driver fined £268 after delay with parking app"

Also, in the media and on tv the BPA looks like they are going to alter the CoP.  Lets see what they come up with.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2025, 10:28:41 am by Dave65 »

eggybread123

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With an issue date of 7th January, you have until 26th January to submit your Acknowledgement of Service (AoS). Follow the instructions in the linked PDF to submit your AoS:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvqu3bask5m0zir/money-claim-online-How-to-Acknowledge.pdf?dl=0

Having submitted your AoS, you will then have until 4pm on Monday 10th February to submit your defence.

Let us know when you have submitted your defence and we will provide a suitable defence.

Hello, thank you again.

I've now submitted my AOS

b789

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Here is the defence and the draft order. You only need to edit your name, the claim number and sign the defence by typing your full name for the signature. There is nothing to edit in the draft order. When done, save them as PDF files and attach them to an email addressed to claimresponses.cnbc@justice.gov.uk and CC in yourself. The claim number must appear in the email subject field and in the body of the email put "Please find attached the defence and draft order in the matter of Civil Enforcement ltd. v [your full name] Claim No.: [claim number]".

Quote
IN THE COUNTY COURT
Claim No: [Claim Number]

BETWEEN:

Excel Parking Services Ltd


Claimant

- and -

[Defendant's Full Name]


Defendant



DEFENCE


1. The Defendant denies any liability for this claim.

2. There is a lack of precise detail in the Particulars of Claim (PoC) in respect of the factual and legal allegations made against the Defendant such that the PoC do not comply with CPR 16.4.

3. The Defendant is unable to plead properly to the PoC because:

(a) The contract referred to is not detailed or attached to the PoC in accordance with CPR PD 16(7.5);

(b) The PoC do not state the exact wording of the clause (or clauses) of the terms and conditions of the contract (or contracts) which is/are relied on;

(c) The PoC do not state with sufficient particularity the exact time when the breach occurred and how long it is alleged that the vehicle was parked before the parking charge was allegedly incurred;

(e) The PoC do not state exactly how the claim for statutory interest is calculated;

(f) The PoC do not state what proportion of the claim is the parking charge and what proportion is damages;

(g) The PoC states that the Claimant is suing the defendant as the driver or the keeper. The claimant obviously knows whether the defendant is being sued as the driver or the keeper and should not be permitted to plead alternative causes of action.

4. The Defendant has attached to this defence a copy of an order made at another court which the allocating judge ought to make at this stage so that the Defendant can then know and understand the case which they face and can then respond properly to the claim.

Statement of truth

I believe that the facts stated in this Defence are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.

Signed:


Date:

Draft Order for the defence
« Last Edit: January 19, 2025, 12:31:44 pm by b789 »
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Dave65

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This car park in Darlington could be the same one were the local MP got involved with last year.

eggybread123

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Duplicate post apologies
« Last Edit: January 21, 2025, 10:38:12 pm by eggybread123 »

eggybread123

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Hi

It is the same one the local MP is involved in - I've been in touch with her but Excel refused to meet her.

A couple of questions of the defence above - it mentions another order that has been referenced and attached? Where do I get that from?

Also do I not need to defend anything about the 5 minute rule or is essentially the defence built on a technicality around how DCBL have raised the claim?

Grateful of advice just so I can understand more of what I'm submitting in case I have to say anything in court

Appreciate all the help so much

DWMB2

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Quote
A couple of questions of the defence above - it mentions another order that has been referenced and attached? Where do I get that from?
The link in b789's post, directly below the defence, marked "Draft order for the defence"

b789

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The PoC are woefully inadequate. If the claim isn’t struck out at allocation stage and the claimant is issued the order and complies with it (yet to see any that manage to do so), then you will be given an opportunity to provide a proper defence.

Either way, irrespective of what your defence is, as long as it is defended, they will discontinue.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain
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eggybread123

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Update, they intend to proceed.

Email