Author Topic: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay  (Read 3368 times)

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Re: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay
« Reply #15 on: »
Sent

Thank you.


Re: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay
« Reply #16 on: »
Thank you for your contact.

We are sorry that you are unhappy with our service and would like to reassure you that we take all complaints seriously.

The information has been escalated to our complaints team and the details will be reviewed.

You should receive a response within 21 days depending on the complexity of the information provided.

Re: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay
« Reply #17 on: »
Magic.

Should be interesting.

Re: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay
« Reply #18 on: »

Clearly, the crux of your complaint is that you are unhappy with the outcome reached in the assessment of your appeal. You say the assessor has omitted elements of the required  mandatory wording of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012. You raised that the operator’s PCN was not compliant and there was the omission of the subsequent two limbed legal choice required under Schedule 4, Paragraph 9 (2) (e). You say if the notice is examined it will be noticed that this was never presented. You say the assessor makes a procedural error as her wording referenced is that as discussed in 9 (2) (f) and not (e).
 
I have looked at the PCN following your complaint. I can see that you raised:
 
 
 
PoFA 2012 in e and f states:
 
 (Quote of (e) and (F) from the ACT inserted here)
 
 I have highlighted the pertinent section of the PCN which discusses PoFA 2012 requirements.
 
•   Green relates to 9 2 (e)
•   Blue relates to 9 2 (f)
 
BLUE:
You are advised that if after the period of 28 days beginning the day after that on which the notice is given (which os presumed to be the second working day after the Date issued) the parkign charge has not been paid in full and we do not know both the name and address of the driver, we have the right to recover any unpaid part of the parking charge from you.....

GREEN:
...applicable cobnditions under Schedule 4 of the Act. If you do not provide the correct address for service of the driver, pass the notice on to the driver, we will pursue you for any parking Charge amount that remains outstanding. Should you identify someone who denies they were the driver, we will pursue you for any Parking Charge amount that remains outstanding.

  The assessor stated:
 
“The Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012 is a law that allows parking operators to transfer the liability to the registered keeper in the event that the driver or hirer is not identified. Parking operators have to follow certain rules including warning the registered keeper that they will be liable if the parking operator is not provided with the name and address of the driver.
 
In this case, the PCN in question has the necessary information and the parking operator has therefore successfully transferred the liability onto the registered keeper.
 
The appellant says that the Notice to Keeper is not compliant with PoFA 2012 as it omits the mandatory invitation to the keeper to pay the unpaid parking charges. However, the Notice to Keeper makes it clear that the keeper may be pursued for any parking charge amount that remains unpaid and failure to make payment may result in additional costs.”
 
I am satisfied that the assessor is correct. Whilst the assessor has not touched upon the relevant sections, I am satisfied that it met the mandatory requirements of PoFA 2012 and therefore, the registered keeper can be held liable for the PCN.
 
Having reviewed both the appeal and your complaint, I am satisfied the decision reached is appropriate based on the evidence presented.

Re: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay
« Reply #19 on: »
Could you upload the quote which is redacted?

This really is ridiculous.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2026, 08:46:22 pm by InterCity125 »

Re: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay
« Reply #20 on: »
Jumping in on this, the pcn "does not contain the mandatory wording", mandatory is mandatory. It seems like theyve closed ranks. The assesor was wrong and so is the complaints assesor. You simply cannot interpret the act to suit yourself. As it stands, the complaint was never going to overturn the original judgement anyway, Im interested to see if ECP and their cronies attempt to test this nonsense in court, now theyve seen this and now think theyve got some kind of 'justification to proceed'.

Re: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay
« Reply #21 on: »
Reply to POPLA with the following;

Obviously add your details so they know where it's come from.


Dear Lead Assessor,


I have received your response regarding the above complaint.

Unfortunately, your response contains some kind of formatting error!

I am sure this an accident.

In your response you attempt to highlight, in GREEN, the operator's compliance with PoFA Schedule 4 Paragraph 9(2)(e).

Unfortunately, you inadvertently copy and paste (in GREEN) the requirements of 9(2)(f)'warning to keeper' instead of 9(2)(e) mandatory wording followed by the two limbed 'invitation to the keeper'.

This in not the first time that a POPLA assessor has done this - I highlighted this issue in my complaint!

Ironically, you actually include the specific mandatory wording, word for word, from 9(2)(f) in your quoted GREEN wording when my complaint was clearly about the missing wording and legal choice which should be presented by 9(2)(e), 9(2)(e)(i) and 9(2)(e)(ii).

Once again, to be clear, I COMPLETELY ACCEPT THAT THE REQUIREMENTS OF 9(2)(f) ARE MET BY THE OPERATORS NtK AND THERE IS NO NEED TO FURTHER REFERENCE THEIR COMPLIANCE WITH THAT TERM.

From my perspective, your response is bizarre since I have never actually, at any stage, raised the non compliance with 9(2)(f) as either an appeal point or a complaint - with all due respect, POPLA Assessors appear to exhibit behaviour where they attempt to move troublesome complaints on to other issues when appeal points are awkward to rebut - your quoted text, which is GREEN, should actually be BLUE since it obviously relates to 9(2)(f) rather than the appeal / complaint point regarding non compliance with 9(2)(e).

In this instance, your quoted GREEN text (which you say relates to 9(2)(e) of Schedule 4) is taken directly from the operator's NtK which, the operator themselves specifically state (on the physical NtK), is given, "under Paragraph 9(2)(f) of Schedule 4" - why are you continually referencing 9(2)(f) 'warnings to the keeper' when the complaint is about non-compliance with 9(2)(e) and the 'invitation to the keeper' - a 'warning to the keeper' and an 'invitation to the keeper' are totally different actions (and, of course, wordings) on the part of the parking operator and one cannot be either be substituted or implied to be the other - English language dictates that a 'warning' states something factual whereas an 'invitation' asks something of somebody - your GREEN highlighted text is simply a series of warnings and an invitation is never presented in your highlighted text.

It is extremely clear that all the wording in both BLUE and GREEN all relates to the warnings which 9(2)(f) require - If you read each sentence in your GREEN section you will see that each sentence is a 'warning to the keeper' of one kind or another - it is acknowledged that the operator has added a couple of additional 'warnings' which are not mandatory but this appears reasonable in nature and does not diminish compliance with 9(2)(f).

I note with interest that the rebuttal sentence, "the Notice to Keeper makes it clear that the keeper may be pursued for any parking charge amount that remains unpaid",  provided by Rachael Hankinson (in her assessment) is now firmly in your BLUE section meaning that she did provide incorrect rebuttal evidence in my initial appeal.



Let's move this back to 9(2)(e) since this was both my appeal point and my complaint;


Once again, taken at face value, you deliberately move the complaint point FROM 9(2)(e) across to 9(2)(f) - a simple examination of the legislation shows that the stated requirements are totally different and the requirements of 9(2)(f) cannot possibly satisfy the requirements of 9(2)(e) in the manner which you 'accidently' imply with your highlighted text.

Your GREEN highlighted text (in order to demonstrate parking operator compliance with 9(2)(e) of Schedule 4) states the following;

"...applicable cobnditions under Schedule 4 of the Act. If you do not provide the correct address for service of the driver, pass the notice on to the driver, we will pursue you for any parking Charge amount that remains outstanding. Should you identify someone who denies they were the driver, we will pursue you for any Parking Charge amount that remains outstanding."

Unfortunately, even you must admit, your highlighted GREEN text fails to highlight either the legally required MANDATORY WORDING or the TWO LIMBED LEGAL CHOICE which must be presented directly, via a written invitation in the NtK, to the vehicle keeper under 9(2)(e) - please read the requirements of 9(2)(e) and then explain this GREEN text further as the quoted GREEN text is completely disconnected from the requirements of 9(2)(e) and bears absolutely zero resemblance to the required wording or legal choice which 9(2)(e) clearly sets out - as already mentioned, the highlighted GREEN text is stated by the operator as being given under 9(2)(f) and not 9(2)(e).

You say that your GREEN text, in your opinion, "relates to 9(2)(e)" - that is fine and that is your opinion but, that does not mean that the GREEN text, which you suggest relates to 9(2)(e), automatically satisfies the terms of 9(2)(e) until that text is 'tested' directly with the statutory requirements of the legislation - instead of testing it, you simply jump to a massive conclusion - this gives the impression that testing it would be 'inconvenient' to your proposed outcome?

The legislation relating to 9(2)(e) actually appears to be completely different to your highlighted GREEN text and actually states the following 9(2)(e);


THE NOTICE MUST STATE that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—

(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or

(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;


Clearly your quoted GREEN text contains none of the information required by the term - and neither is there a two limbed legal choice offered to the keeper.

So, to demonstrate your point, please point out, using your GREEN text if you wish, the required mandatory wording (on the operators NtK) which sets out the sentence which THE NOTICE MUST STATE, "The creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver" - I'll help you out - the mandatory wording isn't present and your GREEN highlighted text does not contain the specific sentence (or anything even close) which the legislation says the notice MUST STATE in order to be compliant - this is immediately fatal to the operators reliance on PoFA.

Furthermore, following on from that, again using your GREEN text if the moment takes you, please highlight, from the operators NtK, the required TWO LIMBED invitation (the two legs separated by the mandatory word 'or') to the keeper to either 'pay the unpaid parking charges' or 'provide alternative driver details' - I'll help you out - the wording / two limbed choice isn't present - if it was present then it has to be immediately after the mandatory sentence.

Once again, notice the precise mandatory requirements;

That THE NOTICE MUST STATE that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver AND invite the keeper— blah blah blah

I have highlighted the word AND for a reason; that in order to be compliant, the operator must set out the statutory wording AND invite the keeper to pay the unpaid charges or nominate another driver - all three requirement of 9(2)(e), 9(2)(e)(i) and 9(2)(e)(ii) must be met.

It is notable that your response never deals with the requirements of 9(2)(e)(i) and 9(2)(e)(ii) - at no point do you address the fact that the two limbed legal choice is missing - without stating the bleeding obvious, anyone can see that the two limbed choice is clearly not contained in your GREEN text - once again, you avoid this because the situation is 'inconvenient' to your proposed outcome.

To be honest, in your reply, you are clearly trying to loosely imply that some of the requirements of 9(2)(e) are somehow 'covered off' by the wording of 9(2)(f) - this is not acceptable and even you must see that the mandatory wording is missing, as is the two limbed legal choice which 9(2)(e)(i) and 9(2)(e)(ii) requires - if you disagree then please present the required mandatory wording and the subsequent two limbed legal choice in your reply - as you already know, neither is present on the operators NtK and, as such, the NtK is non compliant with PoFA since the requirements are extremely specific and legal very tight.

Furthermore, the fact that your reply suggests that the operator's NtK satisfies 9(2)(f) first, and then, highly subjectively, satisfies 9(2)(e) secondly, with some loose keeper warnings, is a clear demonstration of the utter chaos which surrounds the operators NtK - the fact that an assessor is having to go to such lengths to defend the operators position should alert POPLA to the problems which exist with this NtK.

The fact is that POPLA have deliberately introduced subjectivity into a scenario which the legislation makes objective - the notice must state the mandatory wording required by 9(2)(e) - the notice does not state the required mandatory wording - the notice is therefore not compliant - it's as simple as that!

Now please address the matters at hand and point out the required mandatory wording and subsequent two limbed legal choice which 9(2)(e) requires?


I await your response and some further GREEN highlighting!


Best wishes,

xxxxxx xxxxxxx
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:34:54 pm by InterCity125 »

Re: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay
« Reply #22 on: »
Jumping in on this, the pcn "does not contain the mandatory wording", mandatory is mandatory. It seems like theyve closed ranks. The assesor was wrong and so is the complaints assesor. You simply cannot interpret the act to suit yourself. As it stands, the complaint was never going to overturn the original judgement anyway, Im interested to see if ECP and their cronies attempt to test this nonsense in court, now theyve seen this and now think theyve got some kind of 'justification to proceed'.

You are 100% correct.

But this is what you often find with POPLA.

You can present the strongest evidence but the assessor's seem to decide, in advance, if an appeal is going to be successful.

In this instance, as you point out, this is a really clear one but look at the lengths that two Assessors have gone to in order to try and persuade the appellant that the notice is compliant.

Generally the behaviour is always the same - if you present a difficult appeal point the assessor will either;

1) Rebut the point outright but avoid all clarity on how the decision was reached - clarity is the assessors enemy where appeal points are strong - clarity is therefore avoided at all costs since clarity will only ever favour the appellant and that is what the assessor is trying to avoid.

2) Ignore the appeal point totally when rebuttal is impossible - carefully skip over the point and move to the next point.

3) Materially alter the basis of an appellants appeal point in order to make the appeal point fit with available rebuttal evidence.

4) Exclude appellant evidence when that evidence disqualifies the assessors proposed outcome.


In this case both assessors have fumbled in order to try and provide rebuttal evidence.

In each instance the two assessors have provided differing evidence in their rebuttal.

In this case the second assessor has (inadvertently) acknowledged that the first assessor provided invalid rebuttal evidence.

The second assessor then attempts to 'force fit' the wording of a different term into the mandatory requirements of 9(2)(e) - it is clear as day that his proposed compliance is totally irrelevant to 9(2)(e).

The assessor then tip-toes around the precise requirements because any further comments would start to provide the dreaded 'clarity' at a time when the assessor is desperately trying to avoid any clarity.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:06:27 am by InterCity125 »

Re: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay
« Reply #23 on: »
Here's the original email reply, converted to a PDF......

Please let me know if your commenst still stand as I will be going back to them with your response if that's the case....

https://ibb.co/Fkc9Ywr5

Re: EuroCarParks, Sainsburys, overstay
« Reply #24 on: »
Yes - please send.

The Assessor sets out the legislation and then provides no evidence that the legislation has been satisfied.

The Assessor is BS-ing and everyone knows it including him / her.