Author Topic: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site  (Read 1240 times)

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Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
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Seeking some advice about acting as a lay representative for my son. Can I be both a lay rep and / or a witness depending upon the claimant’s case as presented at the hearing?


The complication is that on two occasions very close to each other his car was parked in the same car park and since it took them 2 years to bring the claim, he doesn’t know which of the events the claim relates to and was thus not able to properly defend.

The single picture on the ntk shows him standing next to the car and states ‘driver observed leaving the site’. On one of those occasions I was the driver and the car park sign stated that the driver must remain in the vehicle whilst the car was parked (I did remain in the vehicle whilst he went into a nearby shop = no breach). On the other occasion he was alone and parked the car then went into a restaurant which is on the limit of the car park. However, the sign specifically states that customers of said restaurant were not permitted to park there (thus no offer of contract was made to restaurant customers).
In order to determine which event the claim related to so he could defend accordingly, he sent the claimant a formal letter pursuant to CPR 31.14 requesting further information (no reply) followed by a subject access request seeking disclosure of further information (no reply). He filed and served defence (based upon guidance here and elsewhere when PoC are vague requesting court to dismiss the case) followed by WS based upon the assumption that the claim related to the occasion when I was the driver. I also provided a WS stating the same.
When claimant’s WS arrived it showed additional pictures of son’s car arriving in the car park and of him walking off-site but still doesn’t actually show who was driving the car so we still don’t know which occasion the claim relates too. However, the car park has lots of cameras around it and it’s possible that claimant will present even more pictures at the hearing which actually show that he is alone in the car when it was parked and therefore clarify which event the claim relates to.
He’s not comfortable defending himself if the hearing goes ahead so I plan to act as a lay representative for him whilst also being a witness (though my witness statement would be irrelevant if the additional pictures showed that the claim is based upon the occasion when he went alone).
I can’t find anything which states that a lay representative cannot also be a witness (or withdraw a witness statement during the hearing) but thought it wise to seek better-informed opinions and advice.

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Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #1 on: »
To help us properly understand the case we could do with some more information. It would be useful to see the following:
  • The Particulars of Claim
  • A copy of the submitted defence
  • A copy of your son's Witness Statement
  • A copy of your Witness Statement
  • A copy of ParkingEye's Witness Statement
  • Any order from the court advising of deadlines for submission of documents, and any hearing date etc.
The claimant shouldn't ambush you with evidence at the hearing.

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #2 on: »
Yes, you can be both a lay representative and a witness in your son's small claims hearing. There is no rule that stops you from doing both. The Civil Procedure Rules allow lay representatives to assist parties in small claims, and being a witness does not disqualify you from that role.

However, there are some things to keep in mind. The claimant might try to object, saying that a witness should not act as an advocate, but in small claims this is usually not a problem. Judges understand that small claims are informal and that family members often help each other.

The judge has control over how the hearing runs. They might ask you to give your evidence first, then allow you to continue as your son's representative. Or they might be fine with you doing both roles without any issue. If the judge does raise concerns, the worst that could happen is that they ask your son to speak for himself, so it's good for him to be prepared just in case.

If new evidence comes up during the hearing that shows your son was the driver, and your witness statement becomes irrelevant, you can just say so. There’s no special process needed to withdraw a witness statement in small claims. You can simply explain to the judge that it was based on the limited information available at the time and that you’re no longer relying on it.

At the start of the hearing, it’s helpful to explain the situation to the judge. For example, you could say: “I’m the defendant’s father and I made a witness statement because we didn’t know which event the claim related to. If it turns out he was alone that day, then my evidence is not relevant, and I’d like to continue as his lay representative if that’s allowed.”

The judge will usually be understanding. Just be open about the facts and let them know you are trying to help your son present his case fairly. You’re allowed to assist him, even if you also gave evidence, and especially since he doesn’t feel confident speaking for himself.

Make sure you take a copy of the Lay Representatives (Rights of Audience) Order 1999 with you and show the usher and the judge, if necessary.

However, it is difficult to give much more advice than this without seeing the Parking Charge Notices (PCNs), the Letter of Claim (LoC) and the response, the Particulars of Claim (PoC), the defence submitted, the claimants evidence and witness statement and the defendants witness statement.

It is also incredibly rare that a claim like this ever gets as far as a hearing. The last time this happened was many years ago in the case of Vehicle Control Services Ltd v Ibbotson (2012).  In this instance, Vehicle Control Services (VCS) pursued a claim against Mr. Ibbotson, alleging that he had breached parking terms by leaving the site after parking his vehicle.

During the proceedings, the judge found that VCS failed to provide sufficient evidence to substantiate their claim that Mr. Ibbotson had left the premises. Consequently, the case was dismissed. Moreover, the judge reprimanded VCS's representative for bringing forth a claim lacking credible evidence and warned that any future attempts to present similar unfounded claims could result in contempt of court charges. The judge's admonishment included a remark suggesting that the representative should "bring a toothbrush," implying the seriousness of potential consequences, such as imprisonment, for contempt.

This case has since been cited in discussions about the evidentiary standards required for private parking enforcement claims, particularly those involving allegations of drivers leaving the site.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #3 on: »
Quote
At the start of the hearing, it’s helpful to explain the situation to the judge. For example, you could say: “I’m the defendant’s father and I made a witness statement because we didn’t know which event the claim related to. If it turns out he was alone that day, then my evidence is not relevant, and I’d like to continue as his lay representative if that’s allowed.”
Agreed - you should be transparent about this. If you're not, and it subsequently emerges that the driver was alone, then a witness statement claiming you were there when you were not may not look great.

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #4 on: »
I appreciate the assistance and have collated all the requested documents into a multipage pdf with 45 pages and of 7.5mb total but can't find a way to upload it and the suggested hosting sites convey only the first page? 

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #5 on: »
Use Google Drive
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #6 on: »
here are the requested documents relating to the case in one pdf. all court deadlines were met by both parties and the case has been moved to son's local court with hearing listed for early July
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vjL8etH4PgLiISoM8_TaUMQ8OAH7J4da/view?usp=sharing


any comments appreciated
« Last Edit: June 08, 2025, 05:23:33 pm by allotment »

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #7 on: »
Please don't make us download your documents. If you host on Google Drive, then just make the documents visible publicly.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #8 on: »
Your defence appears to be the MSE template. Did you not seek advice there? As far as I am concerned, no adequate defence could have been made to those deficient PoC and by providing the lengthy one from MSE and also going into some detail, you have weakened your defence.

Obviously the allocation judge failed to consider that the claim was inadequately pleaded and imply allocated to a hearing. It is not clear at what point you received the claimant's wholly inadequate WS which should have been easily rebutted in your won WS, assuming it was received before you submitted your own WS.

Your best defence arguments will still be a preliminary matter that the claim was inadequately pleaded (although you have since argued points that were not even referred to in the PoC) and the fact that the PCN is not PoFA compliant due to the non-specified period of parking. The Defendant was not the driver. There is no evidence that the driver left the site. What an adult passenger does is of no consequence.

Where is the contract flowing from the landowner that permits the claimant to operate and issue PCNs in its own name at the location. Where is the evidence of any boundary that was allegedly breached by the defendant, who was not the driver?

The claimants WS is written by a paralegal under instruction from a Principal and is not the Claimants own. It is hearsay evidence and it is not made clear what is the witnesses own evidence and what is the claimants. This should have been highlighted in your own WS and the claimants WS should be given less weight or even disregarded.

The list goes on.

When you go to court, make sure you take a copy of The Lay Representatives (Rights of Audience) Order 1999 and make a fuss if you are denied the right to act as Lay Rep for your son.

The court can ask questions directly to the defendant if the judge allows it, so make sure you BOTH fully understand the claim and your defence points.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #9 on: »
b789 -

Thanks for the comments.

I've learnt a little  more about Google Drive and the document is visible without download and is complete with the boundary picture which was missing earlier!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1EOnQp2dN8j8jtBGGDnO7BNpJz9eZnzJT/view?usp=sharing


The defence broadly is the MSE template although advice wasn't sought there (or anywhere).

Regarding the details that you say have weakened the defence, do you mean reference to the Nandos etc? Those comments resulted from the claimant's non-responses to the earlier requests for additional information. 

WS statements crossed in the post.

here is the boundary picture provided in claimant's WS - apologies that i missed it out of the previous file.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ErxC-YpZcxdF7758ZnQJJ_1Rztf-NzmW/view?usp=sharing


The contract from the landowner was requested in the defence and again in son's WS but was not provided in claimants WS.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2025, 11:26:33 pm by allotment »

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #10 on: »
So, where are you t at the moment? Have you submitted your (or whoever is the defendant) witness statement yet? What is or was the deadline for submitting your WS?

If it's not been submitted yet, then you can ask for a preliminary matter for the court to consider that the claimants PoC are deficient and fail to comply with CPR 16.4(1)(a) and should be struck out. You rebut everything in the claimants WS that you can and you point out where they ave failed to provide evidence that was specifically requested, such as a valid agreement flowing from the landowner that permits them to operate at the location, etc.

You can have a search for other WS that I have provided for other cases and take what you think you can use from those. Just search the forum. Just make sure everything is relevant to your case and is in the witnesses own words.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #11 on: »
witness statements were due (and delivered) by 30th May.

could defendant submit a supplemental WS about the preliminary matter re: CPR 16.4(1)(a) ?

thanks again...

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #12 on: »
The single picture on the ntk shows him standing next to the car and states ‘driver observed leaving the site’. On one of those occasions I was the driver and the car park sign stated that the driver must remain in the vehicle whilst the car was parked (I did remain in the vehicle whilst he went into a nearby shop = no breach). On the other occasion he was alone and parked the car then went into a restaurant which is on the limit of the car park. However, the sign specifically states that customers of said restaurant were not permitted to park there (thus no offer of contract was made to restaurant customers).

Are you sure that you acting a LR for your son is to his advantage?

The fact that he was intending to visit the restaurant, and therefore breach the terms of the offer does not, remove him from the class of persons to whom an offer of a right to park was communicated.

I am responsible for the accuracy of the information I post, not your ability to comprehend it.
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Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #13 on: »
What's the date of the hearing? What is/was the deadline for submission of bundles?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

Re: Driver or Passenger? Observed Leaving Site
« Reply #14 on: »
I can't access the linked files again. However, I remember on the one for the PCN that we saw, the person (presumably the son/Keeper) who was not the driver at the time, supported by a WS from the actual driver, is seen walking away from the car park, not into the Nando's. There was nothing that I remember seeing on the signs that mentioned anything about passengers and I doubt that even if it did mention passengers, it would not stand up in court.

If the defendant has blown it by mentioning that the driver did visit Nando's, then it is FUBAR'd.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain