Author Topic: CPM PCM at gated new apartment - permit had fallen off dashboard  (Read 80 times)

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horizon753

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CPM PCM at gated new apartment - permit had fallen off dashboard
« on: September 04, 2024, 10:27:54 pm »
Good evening,

I received a PCN from CPM UK Car Park Management, dated 23rd August, for a contravention at my own apartment car park (occurred 21st August 2024).

Reason: Not displaying a Valid Permit.
The permit had fallen off the car's dashboard so was not visible overnight. It was in the footwell.

Context:
I moved into my new rented flat on the 17th August 2024. The apartment came with a parking permit for a space allocated to my flat (there is a sign saying the space is reserved for my flat number).
The car park is access controlled with a key fob which I received when I moved in - you cannot access the car park without a key fob, and you cannot leave without a key fob. Both the entrance and exit gates are fob controlled. There are parking notices from CPM displayed throughout the car park, including one at the entrance. See pictures.

I received the attached penalty charge notice today - I only recently changed my V5C to my new flat, so the PCN had been delivered to my old address (hence the delay in obtaining it).

I can prove I have a parking permit (photos), and can prove I was in possession of the permit since the 17th of August (it is in my flat inventory), and I can provide a signed tenancy agreement showing I live in the new flat hence was entitled to the parking spot since the 17th August. I can also show the vehicle is now registered to my new address.

Do I have any recourse here or is the easiest course of action to pay the fine? I believe I have until the 6th September else the fine goes up to £100.

Parking charge: https://1drv.ms/i/s!Am3WAtBdsFF-gsh4xZk5vulakyzEaQ?e=07t7fg
Notice at entrance of car park: https://1drv.ms/i/s!Am3WAtBdsFF-gsh5YjBCkprcvC5vfw?e=6SP1Hn
Notice on walls of car park: https://1drv.ms/i/s!Am3WAtBdsFF-gsh3q3aUYnn5ycI43w?e=wCmysd

Thanks!

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The Rookie

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Re: CPM PCM at gated new apartment - permit had fallen off dashboard
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2024, 10:40:21 pm »
You mention penalty charge and fine (it can’t be both), but as the notice itself tells you, it is neither, it’s a parking charge, a bill, an invoice.

You presumably have a right under your tenancy agreement to park?
Does that say you have to display a permit? And that if you don’t you have to pay a parasitic private company for not doing so?

If not then clearly they can ‘do one’.
There are motorists who have been scammed and those who are yet to be scammed!

horizon753

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Re: CPM PCM at gated new apartment - permit had fallen off dashboard
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2024, 10:54:52 pm »
You mention penalty charge and fine (it can’t be both), but as the notice itself tells you, it is neither, it’s a parking charge, a bill, an invoice.

You presumably have a right under your tenancy agreement to park?
Does that say you have to display a permit? And that if you don’t you have to pay a parasitic private company for not doing so?

If not then clearly they can ‘do one’.

Hiya,

Thanks for your response.

There's nothing in my rental tenancy agreement about parking.
I was just provided with a valid permit and a key fob to open the gates by the inventory clerk when I moved into the flat.
The permit just has the building name, permit number, and issue date on it. There are photos of the permit and fob and confirmation they were handed over to tenant in the inventory document dated 17th August.
The only mentions of needing to display a permit are the signs in the car park.

Best regards.

b789

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Re: CPM PCM at gated new apartment - permit had fallen off dashboard
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2024, 12:53:22 am »
What, exactly, does your Tenancy Agreement (TA) say about parking? Is there any mention about requiring a permit to park? Is there any mention that parking in your demised spot is subject to terms and conditions stipulated by a third party and you are liable to pay speculative invoices from this third party, unregulated private parking company?

What your TA doesn’t say about parking is equally important. Your lease/TA has supremacy of contract and they can’t simply override or impose conditions that you have not agreed to.

What has your landlord or management company said when you queried this with them? If you haven’t yet done so, that is your plan A. They can tell CPM to back off and cancel the PCN.

If you’ve tried Plan A, what was the outcome? When it comes time to appeal the PCN, you will do so as the keeper only. Do not, under any circumstances divulge the identity of the driver. There are technical flaws in the NtK that mean that they cannot transfer liability for the charge from the driver who is unknown to them to you, the keeper.

Also, the signs are deficient and breach their own AOS Code of Practice (CoP) and also the charge is not adequately brought to the attention of the driver.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

horizon753

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Re: CPM PCM at gated new apartment - permit had fallen off dashboard
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2024, 12:59:09 pm »
What, exactly, does your Tenancy Agreement (TA) say about parking? Is there any mention about requiring a permit to park? Is there any mention that parking in your demised spot is subject to terms and conditions stipulated by a third party and you are liable to pay speculative invoices from this third party, unregulated private parking company?

What your TA doesn’t say about parking is equally important. Your lease/TA has supremacy of contract and they can’t simply override or impose conditions that you have not agreed to.

What has your landlord or management company said when you queried this with them? If you haven’t yet done so, that is your plan A. They can tell CPM to back off and cancel the PCN.

If you’ve tried Plan A, what was the outcome? When it comes time to appeal the PCN, you will do so as the keeper only. Do not, under any circumstances divulge the identity of the driver. There are technical flaws in the NtK that mean that they cannot transfer liability for the charge from the driver who is unknown to them to you, the keeper.

Also, the signs are deficient and breach their own AOS Code of Practice (CoP) and also the charge is not adequately brought to the attention of the driver.

My tenancy agreement does not mention parking at all. Secure allocated parking was mentioned in the advertisement for the flat (which I have saved). I was simply given the permit and gate fob when I moved in, and there is a reserved space in the car park for use by my flat.

I have sent a query off to my landlord and building management company but haven’t received a response yet. I’ll update when I hear back.

Should I send the appeal off today to ensure I’m still under the 14 day period for the reduced charge, even though I’ve not heard back from my landlord yet?

Thanks!

b789

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Re: CPM PCM at gated new apartment - permit had fallen off dashboard
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2024, 01:59:02 pm »
The "reduced charge" or what is more commonly known as the "mugs discount", is designed to get you to pay into their scam without them having to do anything except laugh all the way to the bank. It is up to you if you think you are happy to pay them. They are going to reject any appeal, no matter what goes into it.

The main point of the appeal is to let them know they are not dealing with low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree. If you have the attitude of "I'll try an appeal but if that doesn't work, I'll just pay the 'mugs discount' and be done with it", then perhaps this is not the place for you.

If you feel the PCN has been issued unfairly, then you either fight it or else you give up at the first hurdle. It really is a choice you have to make.

Absolute worst case scenario, it goes all the way to a hearing in the small claims track at your local county court and you do not manage to persuade a judge that you don't owe the PPC a debt. It would probably cost you around £220 and there is no chance of a CCJ on your recored as long as it is paid within 28 days of the judgment. The odds of it getting to that scenario... about 1%.

On the other hand, there's a 99% chance that it will progress all the way to a claim but they are more likely to eventually discontinue when they realise that you are prepared to "go all the way" and they'll go off in search of lower-hanging fruit to try and con.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

horizon753

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Re: CPM PCM at gated new apartment - permit had fallen off dashboard
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2024, 03:19:50 pm »
The "reduced charge" or what is more commonly known as the "mugs discount", is designed to get you to pay into their scam without them having to do anything except laugh all the way to the bank. It is up to you if you think you are happy to pay them. They are going to reject any appeal, no matter what goes into it.

The main point of the appeal is to let them know they are not dealing with low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree. If you have the attitude of "I'll try an appeal but if that doesn't work, I'll just pay the 'mugs discount' and be done with it", then perhaps this is not the place for you.

If you feel the PCN has been issued unfairly, then you either fight it or else you give up at the first hurdle. It really is a choice you have to make.

Absolute worst case scenario, it goes all the way to a hearing in the small claims track at your local county court and you do not manage to persuade a judge that you don't owe the PPC a debt. It would probably cost you around £220 and there is no chance of a CCJ on your recored as long as it is paid within 28 days of the judgment. The odds of it getting to that scenario... about 1%.

On the other hand, there's a 99% chance that it will progress all the way to a claim but they are more likely to eventually discontinue when they realise that you are prepared to "go all the way" and they'll go off in search of lower-hanging fruit to try and con.

Thanks for the advice, that’s really helpful. Management company said to fight it with the parking firm. I intend to fight it as I believe it was issued unfairly - I have a valid permit and can prove I was in possession since 17th August, the vehicle was parked in the bay allocated to my flat and can provide proof of residency, and it’s a secure gated car park you have to have a fob to enter.

b789

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Re: CPM PCM at gated new apartment - permit had fallen off dashboard
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2024, 03:57:27 pm »
The management company would tell you to ”…fight it with the parking firm”, wouldn’t they. However, you can safely point out to them that they are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents and that you intend to pursue this all the way to court if necessary.

Require them to provide evidence that their contracted agent has contractual authority to override the supremacy of your lease/TA. If they cannot evidence a contractual right, flowing from the landowner, through them to their agent, that supersedes the contractual supremacy of the lease/TA, then not only do they not have a case but they will be liable for any breach of your GDPR because they will have obtained your DVLA data unlawfully and will be jointly and severally liable under the Data Protection Act 2018 for any subsequent claim you make for damages and compensation. They may want to consult their legal advisors if they are unsure about this.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

DWMB2

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Re: CPM PCM at gated new apartment - permit had fallen off dashboard
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2024, 04:04:48 pm »
Require them to provide evidence that their contracted agent has contractual authority to override the supremacy of your lease/TA.
Have we fully established that the lease grants any rights in relation to parking at the premises?

b789

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Re: CPM PCM at gated new apartment - permit had fallen off dashboard
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2024, 04:53:12 pm »
Require them to provide evidence that their contracted agent has contractual authority to override the supremacy of your lease/TA.
Have we fully established that the lease grants any rights in relation to parking at the premises?

Not yet. But it wouldn't hurt trying to get the Management company to provide evidence of the PPCs right to issue PCNS that flows from the landowner.

I suspect that, as in many cases, the PPC was contracted without reference to the existing lease and there was no compliance with the L&TA1987 section 37.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain