Author Topic: CE Ltd Rejected My Appeal  (Read 203 times)

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straycat

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CE Ltd Rejected My Appeal
« on: March 11, 2025, 06:43:16 pm »
Hi all,


(Sorry for all the lines/ horizontal rules, it won't let me break up the paragraphs any other way)



I received a NtK from CE Ltd for the driver of the vehicle taking over 10 minutes to park at the Luton Conservative Association (the PCN is attached or scroll a little further down to see).


The driver took about 20 minutes to pay because the mobile payment app kept freezing and crashing (images attached). The driver first attempted payment by phone, but the operator couldn't register the card digits, and there was no option to enter them in the keypad. The driver then tried web payment on https://www.paybyphone.co.uk/ but the site also kept showing an error message and so did the app, which was eventually how the driver paid (images attached). This is why it took approx 20 mins to pay. Parking was paid for 3 hours, and the driver left the car park before it was up. Also, there was no sign outside the car park specifying that only online payment was taken, and no machines were available inside, otherwise the driver wouldn't have entered.


Now I appealed as the keeper, but it was rejected (See appeal at the end of this post).


Is it worth appealing to POPLA? I frustratingly haven't been able to find any details about the landowner online. Also, to make things stranger, the Luton Conservative Association seems to have dropped off the face of the earth- their contact details on the sign are obsolete- phone invalid and website down...


**Heres the link to the drivers attempts to pay via app, website and phone, and pics of the car park:

https://imgur.com/a/9TwsI6P



Any advice would be much appreciated.



Appeal to CE Ltd:

As the keeper of the vehicle, I am appealing this fine. For the record, the driver had paid to park from 13:52 to 16:52 on 18/01/2025 at the Beech Hill Conservative Club, using the Phone and Pay App.

There is no signage to specify that there is no machine payment available prior to entering the Beech Hill Conservative Club car park. Neither does the signage outside the car park state that there is a 10-minute limit for payment. The attached images prove that the 10-minute limit is only written in small writing on the signs inside the car park, not outside it. If this were the case, the driver would not have entered the car park. In addition, the Beech Hill Conservative Club parking website is faulty and does not load, so the driver was unable to see that payment is only possible through pay by phone. This means that motorists will enter the car park unaware of this limit. 10 minutes is not a reasonable amount of time to download a faltering, glitching app and complete payment.

The British Parking Association (BPA), of which Civil Enforcement Ltd. is a member, and the International Parking Community (IPC), recently announced changes to the private parking sector's code of conduct to ensure it "protects genuine motorists who have difficulty making prompt payment on entry." 

This is designed to protect drivers who experience delays in making payment in private car parks monitored by fixed camera technology (eg ANPR or CCTV). According to the BPA website, “the panel and the two parking Trade Associations remain dedicated to building trust and transparency through continuous improvements and higher standards.”

In the Beech Hill Conservative Club car park, there are three options for payment: calling the number advertised on the signage, using the website paybyphone.co.uk, or the Phone and Pay App. The driver attempted all three methods, but each one was slow and unresponsive. Despite this, the driver ultimately DID pay for parking.

Firstly, the driver called the phone number advertised on the signage. However, the automated operator did not offer the option to type out card details on the keypad for payment. Instead, it required the driver to verbally read the digits of the card number. The automated operator could not register verbal speech accurately, and there was no option to type digits into the dial pad. This is an extremely inefficient method to pay by phone. The driver attempted to recite their card details three times, to no avail. The operator then ended the call. There are screenshots attached to this appeal that prove that this phone call took place only minutes after the driver entered the car park. The phone call lasted 5 minutes and 29 seconds and not only did it refuse to accept payment, but it also used up half of the 10 minutes allotted to pay for parking. This sets drivers up to fail. 

Secondly, the driver used the website, paybyphone.co.uk. This also wouldn't permit payment to be completed, as can be seen by the screenshot attached. The parking operator must update their technological systems.

Lastly, the driver downloaded the Phone and Pay App. This app is extremely flawed. It repeatedly displayed error messages at every stage. Firstly, when the driver entered the location code; secondly, when an attempt was made to enter vehicle registration details; and lastly, when the driver tried to complete payment. This can be seen in the attached screenshots. Some examples of these error messages were ‘something went wrong,’ ‘payment is not accepted at this time,’ and ‘please try again later.’ This app was prone to repeatedly malfunctioning and freezing, taking well over the allotted 10 minutes to complete payment. There was no option to backdate the payment, which would have been used if available. However, the driver ultimately did complete payment, which covered 3 hours of parking, as can be seen by the screenshots. This car park must update its parking payment technology and allow drivers to pay for parking through functioning and reliable technology. Reviews of the Phone and Pay Parking app on both the Google Play Store and The App Store attest to its poor user interface that constantly freezes and glitches when payment is attempted. This is evident in reviews averaging a score of 1.1 out of 5 stars.

The car park operators must update their signage to clarify that there is no machine payment available PRIOR to drivers entering the car park. 10 minutes is not a reasonable time period to enter a car park, find a space, park, read all the terms and conditions of parking, accept them, and then make payment. This makes it impossible to comply with the terms on offer. The 10 minute rule is an unfair contract term under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, which protects consumers from unfair terms in contracts they have not had the opportunity to negotiate.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2025, 10:03:06 pm by straycat »

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DWMB2

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Re: CE Ltd Rejected My Appeal
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2025, 07:12:47 pm »
Please show us the back of the notice, and CE's rejection.

b789

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Re: CE Ltd Rejected My Appeal
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2025, 08:28:57 pm »
The NtK is not PoFA compliant because it states very clearly in the PoFA statement on the front that failure to pay the full amount within 28 days of "issue", negates any other statement to the contrary. Also, that statement is a breach of the PPSCoP which also states that the recipient must be given 28 days from "receipt", not "issue".

Of course you appeal to POPLA. You lead the POPLA assessor by the nose through every point of appeal explain, as though to to a toddler, why each point is valid.

Your main problem is not that you may have paid for 3 hours of parking but you were actually on site for 3hours and 31 minutes.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

straycat

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Re: CE Ltd Rejected My Appeal
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2025, 09:57:54 pm »
My bad, here is the back of the PCN: https://imgur.com/a/DGTM0Px



And this is the link for CE Ltd's response to my initial appeal (scroll to the bottom): https://imgur.com/a/9TwsI6P

straycat

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Re: CE Ltd Rejected My Appeal
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2025, 10:02:32 pm »
The NtK is not PoFA compliant because it states very clearly in the PoFA statement on the front that failure to pay the full amount within 28 days of "issue", negates any other statement to the contrary. Also, that statement is a breach of the PPSCoP which also states that the recipient must be given 28 days from "receipt", not "issue".

Of course you appeal to POPLA. You lead the POPLA assessor by the nose through every point of appeal explain, as though to to a toddler, why each point is valid.

Your main problem is not that you may have paid for 3 hours of parking but you were actually on site for 3hours and 31 minutes.

Thanks for this, I will draft something up including this info. Agreed, I really wish the driver was able to stick within the 'grace period,' but I do have to say that payment was made so difficult...

b789

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Re: CE Ltd Rejected My Appeal
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2025, 11:38:23 pm »
Their appeal rejection says that the reasoner the charge is because the driver failed to make payment with 10 minutes of arriving. However, that clause has now been made redundant in version 1.1 of the PPSCoP at Annex F.1(j)

"Parking charges must not be pursued in relation to vehicles where evidence is provided that they are identified as: a vehicle parked in a car park managed by fixed camera technology (ANPR and/or CCTV) for which payment has been made for the full period of parking prior to the vehicle leaving the car park."

However, as I already mentioned, the driver failed to pay for "the full period of parking". They paid for 3 hours and were on site for over 3:30. Can you see the issue here?
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

straycat

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Re: CE Ltd Rejected My Appeal
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2025, 11:23:27 am »
Thanks for this, yes, I see the problem. I wonder how this can be remedied after the fact, I mean would it be stupid for the driver to pay for another half an hour just to strengthen this case, and would it still be convincing for me to reference the F.1 section?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2025, 11:27:13 am by straycat »

b789

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Re: CE Ltd Rejected My Appeal
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2025, 12:52:12 pm »
You can't do anything after the fact. You should try a POPLA appeal based on other factors such as the PCN not being compliant with the PPSCoP where they have reduced the time for an appeal to be made or before they can initiate debt recovery, poor signs which do not adequately bring to the attention of the driver the charge for breaching any terms, insufficient signs, missing or obscured signs, no valid contract flowing from the landowner to issue PCNs at the location and so on.
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

straycat

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Re: CE Ltd Rejected My Appeal
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2025, 04:37:09 pm »
Hi, thanks for the helpful advice, here's a link to a POPLA appeal draft via pastebin: https://pastebin.com/Zzv3nYKj

Fyi credit for the template belongs here: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6576444/horizon-28-days-error-popla-appeal-2025/p5
« Last Edit: March 12, 2025, 04:44:31 pm by straycat »

DWMB2

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Re: CE Ltd Rejected My Appeal
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2025, 04:40:38 pm »
I've copied and pasted it for you below so we don't have to use Pastebin. I'm not sure what issue you encountered, but copy and paste works on here the same as it does on Pastebin and elsewhere.

Quote
POPLA reference number:
Civil Enforcement Ltd PCN:
 
Dear POPLA Assessor,
 
As the registered keeper, I am appealing the Parking Charge Notice issued by Civil Enforcement Ltd. for an alleged breach of the terms and conditions at Beech Hill Conservative Club, on 18th January 2025. For clarity, I am not identifying the driver in this appeal, and this statement is solely on behalf of the registered keeper.
 
Summary of Case:
I wish to challenge this Parking Charge Notice on the following grounds:
 
1.Non-compliance with the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012
2.Inadequate signage and insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge
3.Lack of evidence of Landowner Authority
 
1. Non-compliance with PoFA 2012
The Notice to Keeper (NtK) issued in this case is non-compliant with the requirements set out in schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012. This is because the NtK incorrectly starts the 28-day period for transferring liability one day too early.
 
PoFA Requirements:
Under paragraph 9(2)(f), the NtK must include the following wording:
 
"The notice must state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper to pay the unpaid parking charges or, if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to provide the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver."
It must also state:
"(i) that the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid; and
(ii) the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given."
 
Under paragraph 9(6), the notice is deemed to have been 'given' to the keeper on the second working day after the date it was issued. The 28-day period then starts the day after that.
 
For example:
 
The NtK was issued on Monday 27th January.
The NtK is presumed to be 'given' to the keeper on Wednesday 29th January (the second working day).
The 28-day period should then begin on Thursday 30th January (the day after the second working day).
 
Where the NtK's Wording is Non-Compliant:
The wording on the back of the NtK attempts to transfer liability to the keeper one day early by stating that the 28-day period starts “from the second working day after the date of this Parking Charge," rather than the day after the second working day.
 
Why This Matters:
Incorrectly starting the 28-day period is significant because PoFA requires full and strict compliance with its wording to hold the registered keeper liable. By attempting to transfer liability one day too early, the operator has not met the legal requirements of PoFA, meaning that the keeper cannot be held liable for the parking charge.
 
The mistake in the NtK effectively cuts short the keeper’s response period and breaches PoFA’s clear requirements, which unfairly prejudices the keeper. POPLA must recognise that this premature attempt to start the liability transfer invalidates the notice, making it non-compliant with PoFA, and as a result, the parking charge should be cancelled.
 
Reference to Previous POPLA Decisions:
 
Successful POPLA Decision (December 2024)
 
I would like to draw POPLA’s attention to a recent decision regarding a similar case involving Horizon Parking (POPLA code 3762434330, decision date 17/12/2024), which was allowed on the basis of the same non-compliance with PoFA. The assessor in that case ruled as follows:
 
“The appellant has presented a technical challenge to the parking operator’s application of PoFA. The parking operator is reliant on the correct application of PoFA in this case as driver liability cannot be established. As such, in respect of the 28-day period given for the PCN to be paid or for the driver’s details to be provided, I must note that Notice to Keeper in this case does state: ‘the period of 28 days from the second working day after the date of this Parking Charge’. However, PoFA stipulates (at paragraph 9 subparagraph (2)(f)) that this period must be given from: ‘the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice is given’. In respect of the presumed date of issue, paragraph 9 subparagraph (6) of PoFA advises: ‘A notice sent by post is to be presumed…to have been delivered (and so ‘given’ for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted’. As such, I must uphold the appellant’s grounds in respect of the wording used by the parking operator in this case, as this sets the 28-day timescale from the presumed date of issue, whereas PoFA stipulates this must begin from the day after. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal.”
 
Acknowledgment of Error in Unsuccessful POPLA Decision (January 2025)
 
In another case where an appeal on this same point was initially rejected, the POPLA Complaints Team has since confirmed that the assessor’s judgment was incorrect. While the decision could not be reversed, the complaints handler explicitly acknowledged the error, stating:
 
“I acknowledge that the assessor has incorrectly stated that the given date… I would like to apologise for this error… As PoFA 2012 states that motorists must be given 28 days from the day after the notice is given, you are correct in stating that the 28 days should have begun from [the correct date].”
 
This acknowledgment highlights the importance of adhering to PoFA requirements and avoiding repeated errors in the interpretation of the legislation. I respectfully request that the assessor for this appeal carefully reviews both the successful December 2024 decision and the Complaints Team acknowledgment to ensure a correct and fair decision is made in this case.
 
In Summary:
PoFA states that the NtK is presumed 'given' on the second working day after issuance.
The 28-day period to transfer liability then begins the day after the second working day.
The NtK incorrectly starts the 28-day period from the second working day itself, which is one day too early.
As PoFA requires exact compliance, this error invalidates the attempt to transfer liability to the keeper.
This is a crucial challenge that POPLA should uphold, as it directly affects the legality of the operator’s attempt to hold the keeper liable.
 
 
 
 
2. Inadequate Signage and Insufficient Notice of the sum of the Parking Charge
 
The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself.
 
I note that within the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 it discusses the clarity that needs to be provided to make a motorist aware of the parking charge. Specifically, it requires that the driver is given 'adequate notice' of the charge. POFA 2012 defines 'adequate notice' as follows:
 
''(3) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (2) 'adequate notice' means notice given by: (a) the display of one or more notices in accordance with any applicable requirements prescribed in regulations under paragraph 12 for, or for purposes including, the purposes of sub-paragraph (2); or (b) where no such requirements apply, the display of one or more notices which: (i) specify the sum as the charge for unauthorised parking; and (ii) are adequate to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land''.
 
Even in circumstances where POFA 2012 does not apply, I believe this to be a reasonable standard to use when making my own assessment, as appellant, of the signage in place at the location. Having considered the signage in place at this particular site against the requirements of Section 18 of the BPA Code of Practice and POFA 2012, I am of the view that the signage at the site - given the minuscule font size of the £sum, which is illegible in most photographs and does not appear at all at the entrance - is NOT sufficient to bring the parking charge (i.e. the sum itself) to the attention of the motorist.
 
There was no contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion and not saved by the dissimilar 'ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis' case.
 
In the Beavis case, which turned on specific facts relating only to the signs at that site and the unique interests and intentions of the landowners, the signs were unusually clear and not a typical example for this notorious industry. The Supreme Court were keen to point out the decision related to that car park and those facts only:
 
http://imgur.com/a/AkMCN
 
In the Beavis case, the £85 charge itself was in the largest font size with a contrasting colour background and the terms were legible, fairly concise and unambiguous. There were 'large lettering' signs at the entrance and all around the car park, according to the Judges.
 
Here is the 'Beavis case' sign as a comparison to the signs under dispute in this case:
 
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eYdphoIIDgE/VpbCpfSTaiI/AAAAAAAAE10/5uFjL528DgU/s640/Parking%2Bsign_001.jpg
 
This case, by comparison, does not demonstrate an example of the 'large lettering' and 'prominent signage' that impressed the Supreme Court Judges and swayed them into deciding that in the specific car park in the Beavis case alone, a contract and 'agreement on the charge' existed.
 
Here, the signs are sporadically placed, indeed obscured and hidden in some areas. They are unremarkable, not immediately obvious as parking terms and the wording is mostly illegible, being crowded and cluttered with a lack of white space as a background. It is indisputable that placing letters too close together in order to fit more information into a smaller space can drastically reduce the legibility of a sign, especially one which must be read BEFORE the action of parking and leaving the car.
 
It is vital to observe, since 'adequate notice of the parking charge' is mandatory under the POFA Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice, these signs do not clearly mention the parking charge which is hidden in small print (and does not feature at all on some of the signs). Areas of this site are unsigned and there are no full terms displayed - i.e. with the sum of the parking charge itself in large lettering - at the entrance either, so it cannot be assumed that a driver drove past and could read a legible sign, nor parked near one.
 
This case is more similar to the signage in POPLA decision 5960956830 on 2.6.16, where the Assessor Rochelle Merritt found as fact that signs in a similar size font in a busy car park where other unrelated signs were far larger, was inadequate:
 
''the signage is not of a good enough size to afford motorists the chance to read and understand the terms and conditions before deciding to remain in the car park. [...] In addition the operators signs would not be clearly visible from a parking space [...] The appellant has raised other grounds for appeal but I have not dealt with these as I have allowed the appeal.''
 
From the evidence I have seen so far, the terms appear to be displayed inadequately, in letters no more than about half an inch high, approximately. I put the operator to strict proof as to the size of the wording on their signs and the size of lettering for the most onerous term, the parking charge itself.
 
The letters seem to be no larger than .40 font size going by this guide:
 
http://www-archive.mozilla.org/newlayout/testcases/css/sec526pt2.htm
 
As further evidence that this is inadequate notice, Letter Height Visibility is discussed here:
 
http://www.signazon.com/help-center/sign-letter-height-visibility-chart.aspx
 
''When designing your sign, consider how you will be using it, as well as how far away the readers you want to impact will be. For example, if you are placing a sales advertisement inside your retail store, your text only needs to be visible to the people in the store. 1-2' letters (or smaller) would work just fine. However, if you are hanging banners and want drivers on a nearby highway to be able to see them, design your letters at 3' or even larger.''
 
...and the same chart is reproduced here:
 
http://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/Outdoor-Dimensional-Sign-Letter-Best-Viewing-Distance-/10000000175068392/g.html
 
''When designing an outdoor sign for your business keep in mind the readability of the letters. Letters always look smaller when mounted high onto an outdoor wall''.
 
''...a guideline for selecting sign letters. Multiply the letter height by 10 and that is the best viewing distance in feet. Multiply the best viewing distance by 4 and that is the max viewing distance.''
 
So, a letter height of just half an inch, showing the terms and the 'charge' and placed high on a wall or pole or buried in far too crowded small print, is woefully inadequate in an outdoor car park. Given that letters look smaller when high up on a wall or pole, as the angle renders the words less readable due to the perspective and height, you would have to stand right in front of it and still need a stepladder (and perhaps a torch and/or magnifying glass) to be able to read the terms.
 
Under Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule, the charge (being 'out of all proportion' with expectations of drivers in this car park and which is the most onerous of terms) should have been effectively: 'in red letters with a red hand pointing to it' - i.e. VERY clear and prominent with the terms in large lettering, as was found to be the case in the car park in 'Beavis'. A reasonable interpretation of the 'red hand rule' and the 'signage visibility distance' tables above and the BPA Code of Practice, taking all information into account, would require a parking charge and the terms to be displayed far more transparently, on a lower sign and in far larger lettering, with fewer words and more 'white space' as background contrast. Indeed in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 there is a 'Requirement for transparency':
 
(1) A trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent.
(2) A consumer notice is transparent for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is expressed in plain and intelligible language and it is legible.
 
The Beavis case signs not being similar to the signs in this appeal at all, I submit that the persuasive case law is in fact 'Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106' about a driver not seeing the terms and consequently, she was NOT deemed bound by them.
 
This judgment is binding case law from the Court of Appeal and supports my argument, not the operator's case:
 
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2000/106.html
 
This was a victory for the motorist and found that, where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established. The driver in that case (who had not seen any signs/lines) had NOT entered into a contract. The recorder made a clear finding of fact that the plaintiff, Miss Vine, did not see a sign because the area was not clearly marked as 'private land' and the signs were obscured/not adjacent to the car and could not have been seen and read from a driver's seat before parking.
 
So, for this appeal, I put this operator to strict proof of where the car was parked and (from photos taken in the same lighting conditions) how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective. Equally, I require this operator to show how the entrance signs appear from a driver's seat, not stock examples of 'the sign' in isolation/close-up. I submit that full terms simply cannot be read from a car before parking and mere 'stock examples' of close-ups of the (alleged) signage terms will not be sufficient to disprove this.
 
3. Lack of Evidence of Landowner Authority
 
No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice
 
As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner.
 
The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights, and of course all enforcement dates/times/days, and the boundary of the site - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do, and when/where.
 
It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is authorised on the material date, to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).
 
Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.
 
Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic but crucial information such as the site boundary and any bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the only restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge, as well as the date that the parking contract began, and when it runs to, or whether it runs in perpetuity, and of course, who the signatories are: name/job title/employer company, and whether they are authorised by the landowner to sign a binding legal agreement.
 
Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:
 
7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.
 
7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:
 
a the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined
 
b any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation
 
c any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement
 
d who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs
 
e the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement
 
 
 
I respectfully request that POPLA reject this charge and uphold my appeal based on these grounds.
 
Thank you for considering my appeal.
 
Kind regards,

straycat

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Re: CE Ltd Rejected My Appeal
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2025, 04:45:38 pm »
Thanks, I was just having issues with spacing

b789

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Re: CE Ltd Rejected My Appeal
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2025, 05:30:29 pm »
If you're going to try and say that the Beavis sign is good and CEs sign is bad, simply showing a photo of the Beavis sign is about as useful as a poke in the arm with a sharp stick.

Do something similar to this and stick it right in the section you are pleading in your appeal:

Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

straycat

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Re: CE Ltd Rejected My Appeal
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2025, 12:22:16 pm »
How's this:

https://imgur.com/a/lJCgUJi . I realise the CE Ltd sign does have a yellow background but the size of the writing is still quite small

b789

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Re: CE Ltd Rejected My Appeal
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2025, 01:11:11 pm »
You are demonstrating the difference between the two signs. The Beavis one was considered as a good example of clear terms and the penalty for breaching the terms. Nothing is clear or obvious on the signs used by CEL.

Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience” - Mark Twain

straycat

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Re: CE Ltd Rejected My Appeal
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2025, 01:34:36 pm »
Got it, thanks.

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