Author Topic: Cambridge North NCP Car Park - 3x PCN served at the same time.  (Read 326 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

CurtLemmington

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Cambridge North NCP Car Park - 3x PCN served at the same time.
« on: February 22, 2024, 05:40:11 pm »

Hi All,

Any help would be appreciated.

The driver regularly parks, at Cambridge North Station which is an NCP run car park. It only uses ANPR and online / app based tickets. The driver has heard that the Auto Pay isn't reliable so tend to pay on the day when they leave. This is because they often don’t know how long they are going to be there - sometimes overnight.

I have just received (22nd Feb) three Final PCN letters with the same letter date (saying date of sending this notice 15th Feb) but for incidents dating 7th November, 16th November and 31st October. All some time ago! They are Final Reminder letters as it claims I have failed to comply with their request to supply the name and address of the driver of the vehicle on the date of the incident.  It says the original discounted offer has expired and therefore required to pay the full amount still outstanding of £100! Each letter has photo evidence of the cars number plate at the arrival and departure times.

The issue is these are the first letters I have received to any of these incidents. They driver recalls trying to pay on their app the unpaid parking charge but did not contain details of the parking charges.

My question is therefore whether I have any grounds to appeal based on them taking so long to serve the PCN but also all three at once? Seems unreasonable? They have not sent any prior letters also.

Any advice would be very much appreciated

Many thanks in advance

Seb

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


b789

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
  • Karma: +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Cambridge North NCP Car Park - 3x PCN served at the same time.
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2024, 05:48:28 pm »
Whatever you do, do not reveal the identity of the driver. The location is not relevant land for the purposes of PoFA which means that only the driver can be liable for the charges. You, as the keeper of the vehicle are a separate entity in law and because the PCNs are not able to rely on PoFA, you cannot be liable for them.

You are probably too late at this stage to do anything except wait for them to send you a Letter of Claim (LoC) and eventually a court claim. You can safely ignore anything else they send to you such as reminders and anything form their chosen debt collectors. No matter how scary those letters may seem, they are safe to ignore. You must not ignore an LoC or court claim.

I believe there was an issue last year when NCP updated their app but failed to notify existing users that they needed to delete the original app and download a new version. Anyone using the old app after whatever cut off date they had, ended up receiving PCNs. Of course, they will not admit to this but it is a fact.

You may want to check the address on your V5C logbook to make sure your current address is shown correctly on it. If you moved at any time and forgot to update it, it could be one of the reasons you did not receive the original NtKs. Many people update their drivers licence but fail to update the V5C. Whilst both are handled by the DVLA, they are not connected in any way.

If the V5C address is not up to date, you must get it updated asap. However, you must also instruct the DPO at NCP to rectify your data with your current address for service and for them to erase the old address.

You should also try, in any case, an appeal to NCP (although they may refuse to accept one) as the keeper along these lines for each PCN:

Quote
I appeal as keeper.  I am under no obligation to identify the driver and I decline to do so as there is no legal presumption that the keeper of a vehicle was its driver (as opposed, for example, to being a passenger) on any particular occasion, you are unable to pursue me as the driver.

As your allegation of a breach of terms occurred on land subject to statutory control by bylaws, it is not relevant land for the purposes of the Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) and therefore there can be no keeper liability.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2024, 05:55:41 pm by b789 »

CurtLemmington

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Cambridge North NCP Car Park - 3x PCN served at the same time.
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2024, 07:34:07 am »
Thank you very much for your advice here.

I will try that appeal to the NCP initially. The frustration is they have only sent final reminder letters and all three at once!

How are they likely to respond? Do they respond quickly either way - or am I going to be kept in this state of anxiety!?

The letters are scary but I am guessing that is the point!


CurtLemmington

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Cambridge North NCP Car Park - 3x PCN served at the same time.
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2024, 07:59:12 am »
Thanks again for your reply. I would very much appreciate your opinion on the following draft Appeal letter to NCP:



Dear Sirs,

As DVLA Keeper on the vehicle I have been sent 3 PCNs

GA0018XXXX
GA0018XXXX
GA0018XXXX

I will submit three appeal cases but reference they are linked.

I appeal, as Keeper, on the grounds that I, as Keeper, received Final Reminder letters on 22 February 2024 which is 5 working days after the date of sending the notice of 15th February 2024. The letter deems to have been given on the second working day after the date of sending (15th February 2024).

I, as Keeper, had not received any correspondence before these Final Reminder PCNs which state 'To Date you have not complied with our request for you to supply the name and address of the driver of the vehicle on the date of incident, or to pay the outstanding amount, or to make a representation against the PCN'

The original discounted offer has expired, which I, as keeper, was never made aware of.

The fines are disproportionate compared to the parking charges and three fines received on the same day for 3 alleged offences 3 months ago is unreasonable. The PCN for this case relates to a date of incident of [31st October 2023 which is 3 months and 15 days] before the date of sending the first PCN, I as keeper had received.

As your allegation of a breach of terms occurred on land subject to statutory control by bylaws, it is not relevant land for the purposes of the Schedule 4 to the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) and therefore there can be no keeper liability.

I hope we can agree a reasonable resolve.

Kind regards,

b789

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
  • Karma: +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Cambridge North NCP Car Park - 3x PCN served at the same time.
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2024, 08:45:59 am »
Please don’t send that. I or someone else will come back with something a bit more suitable.

Why do you think you did not receive the original Notice to Keeper (NtK)?

You haven’t answered the question about the address on your V5C logbook. Is it your correct address and if so, was it correct at the time of the alleged contraventions back around October last year?

Also, what is your recollection of attempts to make the payment by app at the time? Do you recall any instances where payment could not be completed? If so, what did you do?

In the meantime, you may want to start familiarising yourself with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP) and the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA)

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Practice-and-compliance-monitoring

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted
« Last Edit: February 23, 2024, 08:50:35 am by b789 »

CurtLemmington

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Cambridge North NCP Car Park - 3x PCN served at the same time.
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2024, 08:59:54 am »
OK I won't send and will await for something more suitable. - Thank you.

Yes my address on the V5C log book is correct and was correct at the time of the offences.

I have no idea why I wasnt sent anything prior to the Final Reminder letters. I haven't moved address in years nor been on extended leave where I may have missed the post.

I just recall going on the gaparking website which didnt have my details registered as parking there for the day so then went on the 'pay unpaid charges' and again nothing was appearing.

H C Andersen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
  • Karma: +17/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Cambridge North NCP Car Park - 3x PCN served at the same time.
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2024, 10:18:41 am »
The driver regularly parks, at Cambridge North Station

Then they can take photos of the signs so that we can see whether car parking is subject to railway bylaws or whether it's contractual. At present we do not know. The 'reminder letters' (I won't call them 'notices' because this misleadingly imbues them with a status of which they are unworthy) are just letters, they do not form part of any regulatory procedure.

OP, where did the driver park on the intervening days and did they pay on those days? If so, and I like to get these issues into focus, they had no reason to not pay on the days in question, particularly as the website states:

'Did you know, using gaparking.co.uk enables you to pay for your parking up to 24 hours after you have left the car park,'.

https://www.ncp.co.uk/find-a-car-park/car-parks/cambridge-north-ga/

« Last Edit: February 23, 2024, 10:22:43 am by H C Andersen »

b789

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
  • Karma: +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Cambridge North NCP Car Park - 3x PCN served at the same time.
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2024, 11:04:36 am »
The car park at Cambridge North is railway land owned by the TOC and is covered by bylaws.

This is an actual statement from NCP in response to an appeal against a PCN issued at this station a few years ago:

Quote
On Railway Land managed by NCP, we currently enforce under contract law. We are not allowed to use the provisions of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) & Keeper Liability as Railway Land is exempt from this. Therefore timescales defined in POFA are not required to be met but there is an expectation that if an operator does not make use of Keeper Liability provisions, they are expected to adhere to the DVLA’s guidelines and contractual requirements to issue the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) no later than 7 months after the parking event.

So, without knowing the identity of the driver, they cannot transfer liability to the keeper.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2024, 11:18:25 am by b789 »

H C Andersen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
  • Karma: +17/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Cambridge North NCP Car Park - 3x PCN served at the same time.
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2024, 01:51:07 pm »
If there is objective evidence, as there could be with photos, then these should be taken and posted within the thread.

We know:
The driver uses the car park regularly;
They have a smart phone.

CurtLemmington

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Cambridge North NCP Car Park - 3x PCN served at the same time.
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2024, 04:05:51 pm »
The driver forgot to pay for the days where a PCN has been sent out. No excuse there.

Issue is it has taken them over 3 months to send out a PCN which is set out as a final reminder. No ability to pay a reduced early rate was offered.

b789

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
  • Karma: +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Cambridge North NCP Car Park - 3x PCN served at the same time.
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2024, 04:18:05 pm »
In which case you can choose to pay the PCNs or challenge them based on the fact that they have no idea who the driver was and you are only the RK and cannot be liable for them as such.

At this stage all you can do is wait and see if they take you to court within 6 years of the contravention date.

DWMB2

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 736
  • Karma: +19/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Cambridge North NCP Car Park - 3x PCN served at the same time.
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2024, 04:21:55 pm »
Sending a Subject Access Request will get you a copy of the original notice(s). This will confirm if they're still issuing contractual charges or trying a bylawys breach.

Photos of the signage would be useful as suggested. If the driver is a frequent visitor this shouldn't be an issue.

Once you've gathered all the facts I'd recommend a challenge rather than waiting for them to do anything - set out your stall. But let's confirm the details first.

CurtLemmington

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Cambridge North NCP Car Park - 3x PCN served at the same time.
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2024, 04:30:21 pm »
Thank you for all your help.

I don't think I could handle the anxiety of waiting 6 years to see if they would take me to court or not.

One of the PCNs does have a clear picture of the Driver entering the car park - assume this is then used in evidence when it does go to court to prove who the driver was?

I am concerned what my risks are if I do ignore this on the basis they do not know who the driver is?

b789

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
  • Karma: +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Cambridge North NCP Car Park - 3x PCN served at the same time.
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2024, 05:05:04 pm »
You would need to make a complaint to NCP rather than an appeal that you were never sent the original NtKs. They will deny of course but you then can complain to the BPA that according to their latest rules the operator should now resend the original NtKs and the clock should start running again.

Either way, you should be able to appeal on the basis that you are not liable as the keeper. It matters not that they have an ANPR photo of the driver. They still do not know the identity if that person.

After they reject your appeal you can then make a POPLA appeal on the same basis where it is invariably upheld.

As far as I’m concerned, I’ve never had anyone I’ve assisted in a PCN issue involving non relevant land pay a penny to the parking companies. They rely on the naivety or gullibility of their victims to pay up. Fighting this on the basis that the keeper cannot be liable for the charge and the drivers details have not been revealed wins every time, whether at POPLA or in a claim.

Anyone knowing this and paying them is, as far as I am concerned, a fool and their money. The PPCs rely on consumers lack of education in matters of civil law.

The choice, however, is yours.

b789

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
  • Karma: +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Cambridge North NCP Car Park - 3x PCN served at the same time.
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2024, 02:39:01 am »
The PCN reminders state that these are “Parking” Charge Notices, not “Penalty” notices. Whilst NCP could, if contractually allowed, issue Penalty notices on behalf of the TOC, they cannot take the motorist to court. It would be a criminal matter that only the TOC could bring and it would be handled in a magistrate court, not a civil (county) court. Should such a prosecution be successful, the proceeds of the fine would go to the treasury and not the TOC.

Also, it would be easy to time out a Penalty Charge Notice as a summons would have to be issued within 6 months of the date of the offence.

This is the reason that NCP are contracted by the TOC to issue “Parking” Charge Notices under civil law even though the land is covered by railway bylaws, which means that, depending on the contract, the TOC can receive revenue from any PCNs or they get the services of NCP free or at a reduced cost with NCP relying on the income from the PCNs.

It could also be argued that the DVLA has breached the keepers UK GDPR by releasing the keepers data without reasonable cause. NCP can never hold the keeper liable, unless they have admitted to being the driver, because they are operating on land covered by bylaws and therefore not relevant land. As NCP is operating on non-relevant land, and they cannot legally hold the keeper liable, it raises questions about the lawful basis for the DVLA to disclose the keeper's data to that company.

As NCP cannot establish a legal claim against the keeper and there is no reasonable cause for the DVLA to disclose the keeper's data to them, the processing of the keeper's data by the DVLA should be considered a breach of the UK GDPR.