Resident Parking Fines

Resident Parking Fines
Posted by Samuasp on 13 Sep, 2024 23:55
Looking for some advice on parking fines and how to deal with this situation

TLDR : £1600 in fines from landlords parking company for parking we had paid for

We moved into our flat at the beginning of June, before moving into we asked for a parking permit on site. We were told this was not an issue and we would be given one. As it turned out the landlord of the flats was awaiting a permit and said they would get it to us as soon as possible. We were paying for a parking space we could not use as it was inside a garage and didn’t have a key or permit to get into it for about 3 weeks, we got the permit on 22nd June along with the garage key.

During this time we had no choice but to park outside the flat in the marked bays outside. We assumed these spaces were also owned by the landlord as we were told we could park outside until the permit was sorted and any fines issued would be dealt with.

Here’s the kicker

The parking space outside we sometimes had to park in (bay 5) was not owned by the landlord of the flats despite it being a row of bays. So we were fined for parking in both bay 5 and 6(6 owned by the landlord as well as the rest of them outside). There is no sign posting outside saying this bay is privately owned however. Vcs manage all the spaces outside so they have fined me for parking in either space without a permit (which we had paid for but were waiting for)

Anyways we send the fines to the landlord to cancel thinking nothing of it as we were told we could park there until we had the permit and could get into the garage.

As it turns out the space they gave us in the garage is actually owned by another resident as we found a nice note on the car in the morning asking us not to park there and to speak with the landlord as they had seen the permit in the window and realised the landlords mistake.

Having spoke with the landlord they said they didn’t realise it was owned by another party and that they would arrange for us to be able to park outside as all the garage bays were full.

We were given bay 6 outside which is now our parking spot however, after 5pm if we take the car out even for 30 min to do a shop in town, we will come back to no space as somebody will take it. This happens on the regular as the warden isn’t present after this time. They will always leave in the morning before the warden turns up again.

One of the fines we have from July (when we had the permit) was for parking in bay 5 without a permit because we got back at midnight and our space was taken, we have photo proof of our car parked in by 5 with our space (bay 6) occupied by a somebody else. We sent these to the landlord to cancel but. Because the landlords mistake does not own bay 5, vcs are refusing to cancel any of the fines we have for this bay, this includes all the fines from before we even got the permit. The landlords is trying to get these cancelled off but vcs are not moving.

DCBL sent letters to which I informed them I’m not paying and sent basically the above. DCBL legal have now sent letters saying 30 days to pay or they issue a claim (ends 25th September)

I’ve spoken to the landlord and they said if I need any help with this let them know, the only help I need from them is to either fight their own parking company.

What are my options for dealing with these 9 outstanding pcn notices ? We’ve tried emailing pictures to vcs where the car blocked our space In July and also about how we’re were waiting for a permit hence why we were parking in the other bays in June but the email bounced back when you send pictures. I plan on trying to get this settled in court along with holding the landlord partially responsible for this mess they’ve left their tenants in (as I type this somebody is currently parked in our space we’re paying (£100 a month for, the irony)

But of a rant but if they issue a judgment is that the time to respond ? I don’t want a claim issuing I want to fight this in court as it looks like the landlord isn’t going to get anywhere with getting these written off and I’m not about to have a £1600 ccj for 6 years for something that’s not our fault

#1 Reply
Posted by DWMB2 on 14 Sep, 2024 10:00
This sounds like a mess. We could do with seeing:
- Exactly what your lease says about parking
- a clarification about where each of the charges was incurred, and for each, whether the land on which the vehicle was parked was owned by your landlord
Part of the issue here is that from your account of things, for some of the charges, your landlord has given you 'permission' to park on land that isn't his, and that he therefore would seemingly have no authority to grant you permission to park on (the phrase "nemo dat quod non habet" - "no one can give what they do not have", springs to mind).

What do you have in writing and from whom?

#2 Reply
Posted by H C Andersen on 14 Sep, 2024 10:12
But of a rant but if they issue a judgment is that the time to respond ? I don’t want a claim issuing I want to fight this in court as it looks like the landlord isn’t going to get anywhere with getting these written off and I’m not about to have a £1600 ccj for 6 years for something that’s not our fault

No. The time is now.

You have several Letters of Claim. These are mandated docs in the court process. You must respond or risk being considered unreasonable.

Show us one of these - I assume they're similar.
Confirm that it is addressed to you by name.
Have you given VCS at any stage details as to the identity of the driver on this day(and others)?

#3 Reply
Posted by DWMB2 on 14 Sep, 2024 11:10
Quote
Show us one of these
Quote
And tell us how many Letters of Claim you have.

#4 Reply
Posted by Samuasp on 14 Sep, 2024 11:58
https://imgur.com/o9Fcyvn
email to vcs from landlord canceling some tickets

https://imgur.com/0lJN1E8
back of loc

https://imgur.com/O348iNr
email to vcs

https://imgur.com/GUaL3vo
front of loc

https://imgur.com/undefined
parking bay

https://imgur.com/Nggw6Ax
email to vcs regarding cancel

https://imgur.com/0gRRi6V
response from vcs to landlord

DCB legal have sent two LOC's so far, checked last night and not recived any others as of yet, the second one has only one pcn on it however. We were told there were 9 outstanding
(let me know if the pictures are good enough if not ill get some more

any help is help at this point, your right its a mess

#5 Reply
Posted by b789 on 14 Sep, 2024 12:20
Please stop referring to these PCNs as "fines." They are nothing of the sort. These are simply invoices issued by an unregulated private parking company for an alleged breach of contract by the driver.

As already mentioned, it is crucial to review your lease or AST (Assured Shorthold Tenancy) agreement. This will tell you what it says about parking, permits, and whether a third party like VCS is mentioned or permitted to issue charges if the terms and conditions are breached. Equally important is what your lease/AST does not say about parking—if there’s no mention of a third-party parking company, that could work in your favour.

So, no "fines" and no "offences" have occurred—this is purely a matter of civil contract law.

About the landlord not owning the garage space they agreed to rent to you: Is this property managed by a management company? It sounds like there’s a disconnect between what the landlord can provide and what they are actually offering you. You may want to ask your landlord for a copy of the ‘head lease.’ This could be useful in understanding how parking is defined and controlled.

Regarding your question on timing:

Quote
"If they issue a judgment, is that the time to respond?"

No, there is no judgment until a judge has made one. You do want a claim to be issued, as that’s your opportunity to fight this in court. The county court process will allow you to present your defence, and only a judge can decide whether you owe VCS any money.

Defences available to you:

You have numerous defences here. The landlord’s failure to provide access to the space you were paying for, their assurance that the "fines" would be "dealt with," the confusion over bay ownership, and the fact that you had paid for parking during the relevant timeframes all work in your favour.

Have you received one Letter of Claim (LoC) covering multiple PCNs, or separate LoCs for each PCN? This will impact how you respond.

DCBL vs. DCB Legal: If you’ve been dealing with DCBL (the debt collection arm), it’s worth noting that they have no legal authority to make decisions about the claim. You do not must not engage with them. However, DCB Legal is the firm that can issue claims on behalf of VCS. It’s important to distinguish between the two, and check who issued the Letter of Claim.

Concern about a CCJ:

In the unlikely event that you lose the case, a County Court Judgment (CCJ) will only affect your credit file if you fail to pay in full within 28 days. As long as the full amount is paid within that timeframe, it will not appear on your credit record at all. It is completely expunged from the record.

Potential court costs:

Even if you are unsuccessful in your defence, the total amount would likely be reduced. Judges commonly disallow the additional £70 added to each PCN, as this is often seen as an abuse of process. Furthermore, if VCS is trying to litigate each PCN separately—for the same vehicle, in the same location, and for essentially the same reasons—that is also an abuse of process. All PCNs should be bundled into one single claim, and if they don’t, the principle of cause of action estoppel can apply to prevent multiple claims.

#6 Reply
Posted by b789 on 14 Sep, 2024 12:30
I see you have posted some information whilst I was making my post. I note that one of the emails is from "the agent leasing the space from the car park owner". Who is this "agent" and who is the car park "owner"?

I also note that whoever this "agent" that they were responding to DCBL (not DCBL Legal) which show a failure to understand the process as nobody should be communicating with a useless debt collector who has no power, whatsoever, to do anything in this matter.

Until we get an understanding of what the lease/AST actually says, there is little more we can do for now.

#7 Reply
Posted by b789 on 14 Sep, 2024 12:54
Here is a suggested response to the LoCs you have received. You may need to correct the reference to the number of PCNs in each LoC but the rest of the letter will do:

Quote
Dear Sir,

I refer to your Letters of Claim.

The alleged debt is disputed, and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.

To date, I have received two Letters of Claim: one for a single PCN and another covering at least two further PCNs. I understand there may be up to nine additional PCNs being processed. As it stands, the sums claimed in these Letters of Claim appear to include debt recovery costs. Could you please confirm whether these sums include VAT? If so, please clarify whether the amounts quoted are net or inclusive of VAT. If the latter, I would like an explanation as to why I am being asked to pay the operator’s VAT.

Additionally, regarding the principal sum alleged for each PCN, I would appreciate clarification on the following: Is this sum being claimed as damages for breach of contract, or will it be pleaded as consideration for parking? Please provide a clear explanation of the legal basis on which these sums are being pursued.

Further, it is wholly inappropriate and an abuse of process to issue separate claims for what is essentially the same alleged breach, involving the same vehicle and location. Issuing multiple claims in this manner is an obvious attempt to recover multiple sets of costs, which conflicts with the overriding objective of the Civil Procedure Rules to handle cases justly and proportionately.

I am fully aware of the legal principle of cause of action estoppel, and I will rely on it if you choose to ignore this demand. You should be well aware, and it is embarrassing if you are not, that once a claim has been brought, further claims for the same cause of action cannot be pursued, as this would constitute an abuse of process.

Therefore, I demand that you immediately suspend any action on these claims and refrain from issuing any further claims until all the PCNs are consolidated into a single claim. This includes any PCNs currently being processed by your client but not yet included in the Letters of Claim I have received. Please reissue a single, consolidated Letter of Claim for all PCNs once they have been grouped together.

If you proceed with multiple claims, I will bring this abuse of process to the court’s attention, including an application for strike-out and recovery of costs.

I expect answers to my questions above, confirmation that action has been suspended and that a single Letter of Claim will be issued once all PCNs are consolidated.

Yours faithfully

#8 Reply
Posted by DWMB2 on 14 Sep, 2024 12:57
We need to see your lease. We also need clarity on which PCNs are in scope on the Letters of Claim, and where they relate to (I.e. Are they on land that forms part of your lease, or someone else's land that the landlord seemingly told you to park on despite having no ownership of it himself)

#9 Reply
Posted by Samuasp on 14 Sep, 2024 13:17
https://imgur.com/XigpYY2
https://imgur.com/kw4X4ng

https://imgur.com/VjVtGWi
permit we got on the 22nd

https://imgur.com/PVcKQYP
found in contract for flat

https://imgur.com/cXI5580
as advertised on the website for the flats

all outdoor spaces are managed by VCS but i assume the landlord or the agent owns the land as its a few blocks of flats with the outdoor spaces being surrounded by these flats. I will be able to check monday who owns the land when i speak to the landlord. if it is their agent ? not sure

at the moment yes, 2 DCB legal letters, one containing a charge
9/6/24 - letter dated 29 aug 24

and the other letter dated 4 sep 24
9/6/24
17/6/24
18/6/24

as per the email from vcs the other day saying im liable for the 9 outstanding i assume other letters are on the way ?

#10 Reply
Posted by b789 on 14 Sep, 2024 13:35
For now, you need to get that response to the LoC off and have them suspend any action until they have consolidated all claims and answered the questions in your letter regarding the principal and the damages and the VAT.

The VAT question is so they incriminate themselves and you can report them to HMRC for VAT fraud. Takes 5 minutes online as they will not provide an answer to the question or will mendaciously claim that there is no VAT on parking charges, which was not the question.

Make sure to clarify the details about who owns what and who contracted VCS and ask for a copy of the head lease from your landlord.

#11 Reply
Posted by Samuasp on 14 Sep, 2024 15:06
Thank you, email sent off, ill speak with the landlord and ask for the head copy monday see how long it takes to get back, just been told another letter has turned up back home so i'll see if its another LOC later, if it is that makes 3 in total so far, if these list the same ones and new PCN's is it safe to asume they have added them all into the same claim ? if so i'll have to wait till i have a LOC with all 9 on them is that correct

#12 Reply
Posted by b789 on 14 Sep, 2024 15:58
Quote from: Samuasp on 14 Sep, 2024 15:06
Thank you, email sent off, ill speak with the landlord and ask for the head copy monday see how long it takes to get back, just been told another letter has turned up back home so i'll see if its another LOC later, if it is that makes 3 in total so far, if these list the same ones and new PCN's is it safe to asume they have added them all into the same claim ? if so i'll have to wait till i have a LOC with all 9 on them is that correct

Basically, you should wait until all PCNs are in a single LoC. If they decide not to wait and issue a claim, any subsequent clams can be requested to be thrown out for cause of action etoppel.

You mention that the correspondence for this matter is going "back home". Is this because when you moved, you hadn't or still haven't update your address on your V5C? If so, you must email the DPOs of both VCS and DCB Legal with a data rectification notice instructing them to erase your old address and to update their records with your current address for service. You do not want either of these bottom-dwelling holding an old or two addresses. That is how so many people end up with default CCJs.

You should also update your V5C (online) with your current address. Not updating it could lead to a real "fine" of up to £1,000.

#13 Reply
Posted by Samuasp on 17 Sep, 2024 19:16
I’m between two different places while I’m on placement so i never thought to change it as I’m back home at weekends anyways to see any letters ect that come through so does it still need changing ?

As for the email no response yet, a friend at work mentioned that the ‘fine’ was for failing to display a ticket but the pictures are of the front and back reg plates of the car, I can’t remember of the top of my head I’ll have to look through them all but I’m sure non of them show any pictures of the windscreen of the car, is this something that can also be used in the defence as there is no clear evidence that a permit wasn’t on show if it’s not displayed on the pcn

#14 Reply
Posted by b789 on 17 Sep, 2024 19:22
As long as the address on the V5C is one where you can receive post and be notified of it, then it is fine.

The burden of proof is on the claimant to prove that a permit (assuming it was a requirement stated in the lease) was not visible in the vehicle, not for the defendant to prove it was. How do you think they can prove it? Have they proved it?