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Messages - whiteleggy

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1
Would you be able to share these plans? I always worry when people mention 'revenge' that they are about to put themselves at a considerable legal risk.

Sharing them would possibly get me in trouble haha, don't worry, I won't be doing anything destructive or rash, grey area territory legally according to Claude, I'll DM you my masterpiece when I'm done so you don't have any lingering worries.

Thanks again for your help, both of you, if you guys or galls have a preferred food delivery service (Justeat, deliveroo, ubereats) or anything else let me know, I'd like to buy you both a gift voucher as a small token of appreciation for your help

2
by way of a somewhat (sad) update, I called and have paid £20 to settle the matter, I won't say how here, but I may (for arguments sake, or may not) seek my own form of revenge which will cost them well in excess of the £20 I paid, in fact, it will likely stop them issuing further fines for a considerable period of repeatable times. I'll get my moneys worth one way or another and relish in the excitement of it!

thanks for all the help, regardless I have saved a considerable amount relative to what I would've paid if it was not for this forum.

The stress and time was not worth more than £20

From a principle perspective, I've got that part covered, I'll come out on top.

3
It seems I don't need an N244 as Judge Iyer has proposed it himself?
His order states:
If the Defendant wishes to amend his Defence, he must make an application by 27 May 2026

This would tend to suggest form N244 would be required. You could always try without such an application (with the potential risk of p*ssing off the judge), or seek to rescue the matter at the Witness Statement stage.

Quote
DCB Legal will usually discontinue if you stay the course
If the matter is heard on the papers, there'd be no real incentive to discontinue. You could push for an in-person hearing but you'd seemingly need to provide a compelling reason to change Iyer's mind.

Thanks DWMB2 that's really helpful. Given DCB Legal have no incentive to discontinue at a paper disposal, am I better off pushing for an in-person hearing despite the judge's apparent reluctance? Paragraph 6 of the order leaves the door open: "While it may be reasonable to request a hearing to provide oral submissions to the court..." Could I argue that I wish to give oral evidence as the only witness to the events in question (i.e. whether the vehicle was being unloaded or parked), since that is a contested factual issue and not just a legal point that can be decided on papers? Would that be a "compelling reason" to change DJ Iyer's mind

N244 form comes with fees, at this point I've got no choice really other than to fork up to change my defence, or plead at witness stage I am not eligible for help with the fees. £303

4
If you want to pay £0, it’s a bad idea.

DCB Legal will usually discontinue if you stay the course, but it depends on how much cost you want to attribute to your time and effort in doing so.

We give you time and effort for free to help you.


Judge Iyer's comments made me feel like I'd veered of course and messed up with the original defence, am I still on the right lines by accepting paper disposal and submitting a new defence? It seems I don't need an N244 as Judge Iyer has proposed it himself?

Any thoughts on my proposed defence?

5
Here is my proposed amended defence

AMENDED DEFENCE
IN THE COUNTY COURT AT MANCHESTER
Claim No: [XXXX]
BETWEEN:
NATIONAL PARKING CONTROL GROUP LIMITED (Claimant)
— and —
[YOUR NAME] (Defendant)

1. The Defendant denies the claim in its entirety. The Defendant asserts that there is no liability to the Claimant and that no debt is owed. The claim is without merit and does not adequately disclose any comprehensible cause of action.

1. The Defendant is the registered keeper of vehicle registration [XXX] and was the driver at the material time. The claim is denied in its entirety for the reasons set out below.

2. There is a lack of precise detail in the Particulars of Claim (PoC) in respect of the factual and legal allegations made against the Defendant such that the PoC do not adequately comply with CPR 16.4.

3. The Defendant is unable to plead properly to the PoC because:
(a) The contract referred to is not detailed or attached to the PoC in accordance with PD 16, para 7.3(1);
(b) The PoC do not state the exact wording of the clause (or clauses) of the terms and conditions of the contract (or contracts) which is/are relied on;
(c) The PoC do not adequately set out the reason (or reasons) why the claimant asserts the defendant has breached the contract (or contracts);
(d) The PoC do not state with sufficient particularity exactly where the breach occurred, the exact time when the breach occurred and how long it is alleged that the vehicle was parked before the parking charge was allegedly incurred;
(e) The PoC do not state precisely how the sum claimed is calculated, including the basis for any statutory interest, damages, or other charges;
(f) The PoC do not state what proportion of the claim is the parking charge and what proportion is damages;
(g) The PoC do not provide clarity on whether the Defendant is sued as the driver or the keeper of the vehicle, as the claimant cannot plead alternative causes of action without specificity.


4. The Defendant submits that courts have previously struck out materially similar claims of their own initiative for failure to adequately comply with CPR 16.4, particularly where the Particulars of Claim failed to specify the contractual terms relied upon or explain the alleged breach with sufficient clarity.

5. In comparable cases involving modest sums, judges have found that requiring further case management steps would be disproportionate and contrary to the overriding objective. Accordingly, strike-out was deemed appropriate. The Defendant submits that the same reasoning applies in this case and invites the court to adopt a similar approach by striking out the claim due to the Claimant's failure to adequately comply with CPR 16.4, rather than permitting an amendment.

2. It is denied that the vehicle was "parked in an area where parking is prohibited" as alleged. The Claimant's own evidence shows the vehicle was stationary at the location for 1 minute and 25 seconds only (18:53:47 to 18:55:12). The Defendant's version of events, pursuant to CPR 16.5(2)(b), is as follows.

3. At the material time the Defendant was working as a self-employed delivery driver under contract to Amazon Logistics UK Limited (trading as Amazon Flex), undertaking deliveries on a pre-allocated delivery block.

4. The vehicle was momentarily stopped for the sole purpose of unloading parcels and delivering them on foot to residents of the apartment building at the location. A delivery to that very building is recorded in the Amazon Flex application as completed at 18:54, falling squarely within the 1 minute 25 second window relied upon by the Claimant.

5. The Defendant denies that the act of momentarily stopping a delivery vehicle to unload constitutes "parking." The Defendant will rely on the County Court appeal decision of His Honour Judge Charles Harris QC in Jopson v Homeguard Services Ltd [2016] B9GF0A9E, in which it was held that brief stopping for the purpose of unloading is not "parking" in the ordinary sense and does not engage parking restrictions of this kind. While Jopson concerned a resident's right to unload, the underlying principle — that loading/unloading is functionally and legally distinct from parking — applies with equal force to a delivery driver lawfully unloading goods at the same destination.

6. Further or alternatively, it is denied that any contract was formed between the Defendant and the Claimant. A contract by conduct in these circumstances requires a reasonable consideration period during which a driver may locate, read and decide whether to accept the terms of the signage. The International Parking Community Code of Practice (in force at the material time) and the Private Parking Single Code of Practice (in force from 1 October 2024) each prescribe a minimum 5-minute consideration period. A stop of 1 minute 25 seconds falls well below that threshold, and the Claimant has adduced no evidence capable of establishing acceptance of any contractual terms.

7. In any event, the signage relied upon by the Claimant makes no reference to a prohibition on unloading, loading or stopping for the purposes of delivery. The Defendant denies that any reasonable driver in his position would have understood the signage to prohibit the brief stop in question.

8. To the extent the sum claimed exceeds the original parking charge, any additional "debt recovery", "administration" or like costs are denied. Such add-on sums are not recoverable, being either an abuse of process or already subsumed within the parking charge per the reasoning of the Supreme Court in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67.

9. It is denied that the sum claimed, or any sum, is due. The Defendant puts the Claimant to strict proof of: (a) the contractual terms relied upon; (b) the formation of any contract with the Defendant; (c) the alleged breach; and (d) the basis on which the sum claimed has been calculated, including any element of damages and any entitlement to interest.

Statement of Truth
I believe that the facts stated in this Amended Defence are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.

Signed: ……………………………
[YOUR NAME], Defendant
Date: ……………………………
"

I've been asked today to call DCBLegal, even though we've had mediation they want to propose a settlement it seems, I'm seriously considering going ahead, unless anyone here thinks it's a bad idea?

6
Please show the whole claim form. Only redact the claim number, your personal details and MCOL password. We need to see the name of the claimant and who is acting for them. However, that looks very much like a DCB Legal claim. Also, who has signed the claim (on the back of the form).

As it is likely a DCB Legal issued claim, with an issue date of 23rd October you have until 4pm on Tuesday 11th November to submit your defence. If you submit an Acknowledgement of Service (AoS) before then, you would then have until 4pm on Tuesday 25th November to submit your defence.

You only need to submit an AoS if you need extra time to prepare your defence. If you want to submit an AoS then follow the instructions in this linked PDF:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvqu3bask5m0zir/money-claim-online-How-to-Acknowledge.pdf?dl=0

Until very recently, we never advised using the MCOL to submit a defence. However, due to recent systemic failures within the CNBC, we feel that it is safer to now submit a short defence using MCOL as it is instantly submitted and entered into the "system". Whilst it will deny the use of some formatting or inclusion of transcripts etc. these can always be included with the Witness Statement (WS) later, if it ever progresses that far.

You will need to copy and paste it into the defence text box on MCOL. It has been checked to make sure that it will fit into the 122 lines limit.

Quote
1. The Defendant denies the claim in its entirety. The Defendant asserts that there is no liability to the Claimant and that no debt is owed. The claim is without merit and does not adequately disclose any comprehensible cause of action.

2. There is a lack of precise detail in the Particulars of Claim (PoC) in respect of the factual and legal allegations made against the Defendant such that the PoC do not adequately comply with CPR 16.4.

3. The Defendant is unable to plead properly to the PoC because:

(a) The contract referred to is not detailed or attached to the PoC in accordance with PD 16, para 7.3(1);

(b) The PoC do not state the exact wording of the clause (or clauses) of the terms and conditions of the contract (or contracts) which is/are relied on;

(c) The PoC do not adequately set out the reason (or reasons) why the claimant asserts the defendant has breached the contract (or contracts);

(d) The PoC do not state with sufficient particularity exactly where the breach occurred, the exact time when the breach occurred and how long it is alleged that the vehicle was parked before the parking charge was allegedly incurred;

(e) The PoC do not state precisely how the sum claimed is calculated, including the basis for any statutory interest, damages, or other charges;

(f) The PoC do not state what proportion of the claim is the parking charge and what proportion is damages;

(g) The PoC do not provide clarity on whether the Defendant is sued as the driver or the keeper of the vehicle, as the claimant cannot plead alternative causes of action without specificity.

4. The Defendant submits that courts have previously struck out materially similar claims of their own initiative for failure to adequately comply with CPR 16.4, particularly where the Particulars of Claim failed to specify the contractual terms relied upon or explain the alleged breach with sufficient clarity.

5. In comparable cases involving modest sums, judges have found that requiring further case management steps would be disproportionate and contrary to the overriding objective. Accordingly, strike-out was deemed appropriate. The Defendant submits that the same reasoning applies in this case and invites the court to adopt a similar approach by striking out the claim due to the Claimant’s failure to adequately comply with CPR 16.4, rather than permitting an amendment. The Defendant proposes that the following Order be made:

Draft Order:

Of the Court's own initiative and upon reading the particulars of claim and the defence.

AND the court being of the view that the particulars of claim do not adequately comply with CPR 16.4(1)(a) because: (a) they do not set out the exact wording of the clause (or clauses) of the terms and conditions of the contract which is (or are) relied on; and (b) they do not adequately set out the reason (or reasons) why the claimant asserts that the defendant was in breach of contract.

AND the claimant could have complied with CPR 16.4(1)(a) had it served separate detailed particulars of claim, as it could have done pursuant to PD 7C, para 5.2, but chose not to do so.

AND upon the Court determining, having regard to the overriding objective (CPR 1.1), that it would be disproportionate to direct further pleadings or to allot any further share of the Court’s resources to this claim (for example by ordering further particulars of claim and a further defence, with consequent case management).

ORDER:

1. The claim is struck out.

2. Permission to either party to apply to set aside, vary or stay this order by application on notice, which must be filed at this Court not more than 7 days after service of this order, failing which no such application may be made.

This will never reach a hearing if it is a DCB Legal issued claim.

Yeah this is the defence I submitted and it literally says in the first line "The Defendant denies the claim in its entirety".

I'm not sure if I should pushback and re-iterate my current defence (probably a bad idea, given the judge clearly doesn't like it)

Or I should change my defence and tackle the main facts of my point being:

The vehicle was not parked — it was stationary for 1 minute 25 seconds while actively unloading Amazon Flex deliveries

A contract by conduct cannot be formed in under 5 minutes (BPA/IPC Code of Practice minimum consideration period)

I have evidence: the app showing delivered at 18:54, Google Maps timeline, the delivery address matching the location

The signage contained no prohibition on unloading

Not sure if I should accept to a paper disposal either, guidance appreciated but if there's no advice I may just accept it, change my defence and hope for the best, perhaps I should've paid the £100 mediation settlement figure after all, arghhhh!

8
Seems the judge has taken a dim view of my defence and in Point (3):

where it says it says my defence "fails to deny or not admit any factual allegations in the particulars of claim, and is therefore deemed to admit them under CPR 16.5(5)"

seems quite worrying to me

My thoughts are:

The vehicle was not parked — it was stationary for 1 minute 25 seconds while actively unloading Amazon Flex deliveries

A contract by conduct cannot be formed in under 5 minutes (BPA/IPC Code of Practice minimum consideration period)

I have evidence: the app showing delivered at 18:54, Google Maps timeline, the delivery address matching the location

The signage contained no prohibition on unloading

Do I accept a paper disposal, and amend my defence with the above facts?

Any advice is massively appreciated, I have a 12 day deadline

https://freeimage.host/i/img-0682.BmgAPJp
https://freeimage.host/i/img-0684.BmgAi5N

9
Today I received a “Notice of allocation to the small claims track”

I believe I need to write to the court and the thief’s if I wish to object to a paper disposal

I’ve attached the letter, advice is much appreciated :)

Letter1

Letter2

10
Mediation came and went, they wanted £100 but I was not wanting to pay that

Today I have received a letter "Notice of transfer of proceedings". It says the procedural judge will allocate the claim to track and give directions. I'll get details of the judges decision sent to me in a "notice of allocation".

I assume the judge is just going to set a hearing, rather than review the evidence so far?

Thanks!

11
By way of update, I now have my telephone mediation early March. National Parking Control Group vs Me.

What should be the sticking and focus points of my defence which I presume the mediator will ask of me?

12
Just had the following email after submitting my defence over 2 weeks ago

 “Good Morning

Having reviewed the content of your defence, we write to inform you that our client intends to proceed with the claim.

In due course, the Court will direct both parties to each file a directions questionnaire. In preparation for that, please find attached a copy of the Claimant's, which we confirm has been filed with the Court.

Without Prejudice to the above, in order to assist the Court in achieving its overriding objective, our client may be prepared to settle this case - in the event you wish to discuss settlement, please call us on 0203 434 0433 within 7 days and make immediate reference to this correspondence.

If you have provided an email address within your Defence, we intend to use it for service of documents (usually in PDF format) hereon in pursuant to PD 6A (4.1)(2)(c). Please advise whether there are any limitations to this (for example, the format in which documents are to be sent and the maximum size of attachments that may be received). Unless you advise otherwise, we will assume not.

 

Kind Regards,

Litigation Support

DCB Legal Ltd”

13
Okay so here is the full claim form:

https://freeimage.host/i/Ks5DQLX
https://freeimage.host/i/Ks5DLXt
https://freeimage.host/i/Ks5DD1s

Although DCBL were sending me collection letters and are the "Address for sending documents and payments", the claimant is National Parking Control

The claim is signed for by David John Croot who is a director/solicitor at DCB Legal, I'll await your confirmation and submit the defence you sent.

I really do appreciate your help, I owe you a pint or something at the least!!

14
https://freeimage.host/i/KiXVkMX
https://freeimage.host/i/KiXVent
https://freeimage.host/i/KiXVNtI

Hi Guys,

Received the money claim today! Dated 23rd Oct so I may need to move fast with my response.

I've attached the particulars of the case which is "Parked in area where parking is prohibited"

I also stupidly did not keep screenshots of the individual images they supplied, not sure if that matters but I've attached what I do have, as well as the bits I kept from my initial post (amazon flex app showing address matching the area, google maps timeline evidence I was delivering and not looking to or intending to park etc)

I'm not sure I go down the route of me loading and not parking, as I did in my appeal, using my amazon flex app screenshots, or if I argue the observed time as stated on their letter being 18:53:47-18:55:12 and well under the 5 minute guidelines under POFA? But does me already admitting to delivering for Amazon and therefore unloading negate that 5 minute grace period? Arghhh!!

Any advice or guidance appreciated!

15
If you follow the advice here, you will not be paying a penny to NPC. However, you will not win this with any appeal. It will go all the way to a court claim where we will advise on how to defend it and eventually the claim will either be struck out or discontinued.

Are you prepared to follow the advice and fight or are you low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree who will eventually pay up out of ignorance and fear?

For starters, by appealing and identifying as the driver, you have already blow away the no Keeper liability defence. Thisis because you should only have appealed as the Keeper of the vehicle and referred to the driver in the third person. Until you blabbed that you, the known Keeper, were also the unknown driver, they had no idea who the driver was.

Because their Notice to Keeper (NtK) is not compliant with PoFA paragraph 9(2)(a), they could not hold the known Keeper if the unknown drivers identity was known. That useful defence has now gone.

However... the same reason that they have failed to comply with PoFA 9(2)(a), also means that they have not evidenced that the vehicle was stopped for longer than the minimum consideration period for a contract to have been formed by conduct. The BPA/IPC PPSCoP section 5.1 requires that a minimum 5 minute consideration period is required, in order to allow the driver to seek out and find the signs, read and decide whether to accept the terms and conditions of parking before issuing a PCN.

Also, basic contract law requires a consideration period for a contract by conduct to be formed. Without this evidence, they can't prove that a contract was formed with the driver and any judge worth his salt would throw it out of court.

So, if you want to avoid paying a penny to NPC, are you prepared to follow the advice and fight this? If not, then I won't bother providing further advice unless you confirm that you don't want to waste your hard earned money paying NCP.

Good Morning

I thoroughly enjoyed your response, I admit I knew I had messed up by appealing, it was a reaction stemmed from emotion, I shall no longer do this on the matter.

Although I did tick the "registered keeper" and not the "I was the driver" box, I understand by blabbing I have lost that defence, ignorance on my part, good to know for next time.

Normally I am the gullible person who would pay, but as a matter of principle I do not want to give them a penny of my money, I work two jobs for my daughter, not to pay them more than the entire amount I earned on the night, irrelevant but I hope this echos how irritated I am at this appeal denial, it baffles me how any sane person can sit there and deny an person with obvious merit to be there and clearly not trying to circumvent parking rules, simply doing my job.

Thank you so much for providing the PoFA 9(2)(a) argument, I argued the same thing, although in layman's terms without paraphrasing anything so moot point

So are my next steps to essentially do nothing/ignore everything until a letter before action I assume? Sod the next appeal correct?

I am prepared to fight this, all the way, in fact after reading your response I think I relish the idea of fighting it.

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