Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - TheParkingmeister

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 9
1
Yep, this also happened about 8-9 months ago, I had 6 identical GroupNexus PCN's 3 accepted, 3 rejected. It is a role of the dice, no logic or accurate application of the law and code of practice. It depends on the assessor you get and whether they got out of the wrong side of the bed that morning or whether they are quite simply a 🔔🔚

Unfortunately, the other one will be paid, my employer is not prepared to go to court over these, and so I am left with a near impossible task.

I had made a complaint to National Highways regarding their contract with MOTO and their disregard of DfT Circular 01/2022, including responsibilities  to provide a safe area for HGV drivers to take their mandatory drivers' hours breaks, as well as consumer law and contract law. As always, they just redirected me to Department of Transport and POPLA. So, I wrote to Department of Transport, so I'll see if anything comes of it. But a driver paying £33 for overnight parking and essentially being penalised due to MOTOs lack of capacity and bad management is a disgrace.

In this instance I will make sure the company pays and it's not passed onto the driver, as the driver was at 15:00 hours duty time, the legal maximum, so could not have lawfully driven anywhere else.

2
I got a decision back for the second one with near identical facts and identical appeals. Only difference really is that this one paid £25 the other was £33. This one was successful. The assessor gave the reasoning for the decision as:

"I am allowing this appeal, with my reasoning outlined below: In this case the appellant has challenged the adequacy of signage in the direct area used by the motorist this day. While the motorist did pay to park on the day in question, I am unable to consider this action alone is representative of all terms and conditions having been communicated to the motorist, most notably as the operator’s evidence shows some signs detail the requirement for HGV’s to pay (if remaining longer than 2 hours) without any other listed terms. On review of the operator’s submission further, inclusive of their photos of
the event (showing the vehicle to have stopped on double yellow lines at night), I have not identified any terms and conditions signs in proximity to the event. The only sign to have been demonstrated to have been near to the vehicle relates to a fuel payment method. I must also note I have not been
provided with any direct context as to where this event took place across the wider area of this HGV service facility. The Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice (The Code) sets the standards its parking operators need to comply with. Section 3.1.3 of the Single Code of Practice contains the
requirements for signs displaying the terms and conditions. The signs must be placed throughout the site, so that drivers have the opportunity to read them when parking or leaving their vehicle. On review of the operator’s site map, this has shown numerous signs are placed around the buildings of this facility. However, this also shows large areas of the site that do not have any demonstrated signage locations. As I have been unable to identify if any terms and conditions signs were placed in proximity to the event in question, I am unable to conclude the operator’s evidence has fully rebutted the appellant’s grounds in this case. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal. The appellant has raised other grounds in their appeal, but as I am allowing the appeal, it is not necessary for me to address these."

What a contrast  :-\

3
If you want to take them to London Tribunals to appeal the matter, then you have to wait for the Enforcement Notice, appeal that and be rejected, then you can register an appeal at LT.

I suggest you "mug-up" on the LLA Act 1996, in the parts relating to bus lanes and especially Schedule 1 which deals with Enforcement Notices.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/schedule/1/enacted

Read especially, the paragraph headed Admissibility of certain evidence in the section 7 (1) et seq,

Yeah, I spoke to the driver and he agreed to pay this one. He had no reason to be in the bus lane. It was really indefensible. I thought maybe the HGVs coming the opposite way (as seen in the video I cant share) were possibly encroaching on our vehicles side of the road as there is cars parked on the opposite side. But looking on GSV there is still plenty of room, and if our vehicle was giving them a wide birth, it was by all means, unnecessarily wide.

Whislt it's possible the video doesn't show the vehicle going past upright signage or some other failure in evidence of the contravention. But it was grasping at straws I think.

And I came to the conclusion the PCN itself was in check. I made the mistake of trusting the word of AI initially which sent me down a rabbit hole. Essentially the notice would not be compliant with the original 1996 order but is with the amended version. But damn AI is not just wrong, it is sooo convincingly wrong sometimes it's concerning. The ultimate propaganda machine.

4
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZkKoRC8v8-zoiLIOdq1N0146A-HXM3_a/view?usp=drivesdk

I did find a previous post about this one but a lot of the comments were Imgur images I couldn't see.

But I have a specific question about this. The PCN is issued under the London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as amended) and the statutory requirements in that legislation include mandatory information to be included on the Notice.

I may be mistaken, but they seem to have gotten this wrong, much like they did in this previous case of mine for a Bus Gate contravention PCN which was issued under London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 - https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/enfield-council-contravention-33g-using-a-route-restricted-to-certain-vehicles-l/

They seem to be attempting to mix and match the mandatory information regarding Payment and the mandatory information regarding the rights to appeal.

This latest notice seems to suggest I can only appeal after the 28 days for payment has elapsed and they send out an Enforcement Notice which I can appeal.

It says "If the Penalty Charge is not paid before the end of t the 28 day period, an Enforcement Notice may be served
by the council on the person appearing to be the owner of the vehicle. The Enforcement Notice will allow
formal representations on the following grounds:


That the recipient was not the owner at the time
That there was no contravention
That the vehicle was being used without the owner's consent"


Do I have the right to appeal this notice issued under London Local Authorities Act 1996 (as amended) or not? I believe Schedule 1 of the Act says I have the right to appeal this specific Notice. But the Council's wording just seems wrong.

5
Thanks! Got the job done!  8) Just thought I'd post the outcome here too so it is archived for anyone else who may have a similar issue in the future

6
They submitted a DNC today.

The authority's reasons for not contesting the case are:

“The authority no longer wishes to contest this appeal due to an administrative error.”

The TRO and deposited documents were a mess so I'm not surprised.

-Their Notice of Making for the 2025 TRO for the 2.1m width restriction had a link to the Council website where the TRO and documents were meant to be deposited for public inspection. The link took you to the old 2024 TRO 2.7m width restriction deposited documents, and the 2025 TRO documents are not published online.
-They failed to send the correct documents numerous times including refusing to send them twice, but then sending the 2024 road plans and engineer signage  drawing.
-Their new 2.1m width restriction has way less signage for a tighter restriction with the road width restriction reinforced by Trief GST2A High Containment Kerb Units. They overengineered the physical narrowing of the road and completely negated the safety aspects and essentially built a trap for HGV's forcing them through the bus gate.
-Also, there was no advance signage on the route our vehicle took.

7
I got a decision for one of the two today that I appealed to POPLA 85 days ago. It was unsuccessful. It is incredibly frustrating how they just skip over raised points or just side with the operator and frankly, just make **** up.

Turns out you can pay £33 for parking and still get shafted because they didnt provide the parking service paid for. Surely that £33 should be coming out of the charge. But nooo MOTO claim to have no relation to GroupNexus/CP Plus, as they operate entirely independently on their own car park according to MOTO.

The assessor can't even identify the **** creditor correctly.

Also says: "In this case, the driver has not parked in accordance with the terms and conditions displayed on the signs. Therefore, the consideration period has ended." Sooo, are the signs meant to be read whilst driving then? Wtf?

Decision: Unsuccessful

Assessor Name: Gemma West

Assessor supporting rational For decision:
POPLA is a single stage appeal service, we are impartial and independent of the sector. We consider the evidence provided by both parties to assess whether the PCN has been issued correctly by the parking operator and to determine if the driver has complied with the terms and conditions for the use of the car park or site. Our remit only extends to allowing or refusing an appeal.
 
The terms and conditions of the car park state a £100 PCN will be issued when causing an obstruction to the site, other vehicles and/or car park users. The appellant explains the driver paid the parking tariff, which was a payment of £33 for overnight parking. The receipt was provided within their appeal. The HGV area was full, and the contract was frustrated as no lawful parking services were available. I acknowledge the appellant’s comments, and I do not dispute the driver has made a payment.
 
However, the terms and conditions are clear that vehicles must park within a marked bay and not cause an obstruction. I note these comments, I must state for there to be a frustration of contract, the contract had to be impossible to continue, or the contract be radically changed.
However, in this instance the requirement was for the motorist to park within a marked bay and not park causing an obstruction. Whilst I appreciate the appellant has advised there were no parking bays, the driver could have left the car park to avoid the issuance of the parking charge. As such, I do not consider there was a frustration of contract as the driver could have left the car park.
 
The appellant has told us in their response that they consider the charge is unfair contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations and the amount of the PCN is disproportionate . The appeal reasons raised have led me to consider the relevant case law of ParkingEye v Beavis. The fairness of parking charges was considered more broadly by the Supreme Court in the case of Parking Eye v Beavis. The court found that the charge was not unfair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations because the charge was no higher than to achieve the operator's objective of effectively managing the car park. It concluded that a charge in the region of £85 was proportionate, and it attached importance to the fact that the charge was prominently displayed in large lettering on the signage. The Court made it clear that the same considerations that means it was not a penalty also mean it is not unfair. With that in mind, to conclude whether it is unfair according to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations, I have to take into account the charge amount in the appellant’s case, as well as the signage. After reviewing the signage provided by the operator, I am satisfied that the signage is legible, and the charge amount is in the region of £85 and therefore allowable.

The appellant states the Notice to Keeper does not comply with the requirements of PoFA 2012. The company *********** has identified as the keeper of the vehicle on the day of the parking event. As such, I am considering the ***********’s liability for the PCN, as the keeper. For an operator to transfer liability of unpaid parking charges from the driver of the vehicle to the registered keeper of the vehicle, the regulations laid out in the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA) 2012 must be adhered to. Having viewed the notice to keeper issued to the appellant I am satisfied that the operator has complied with Schedule 4 paragraph 9 of PoFA 2012, and that liability of the parking charge was successfully transferred to the keeper at the time of the event. I note the appellant’s comments regarding the identification of the creditor. The operator has provided a copy of its contract with CP Plus of which Group Nexus is a trading name of. In this case, the signs and the PCN identify Group Nexus as the creditor and as they are a trading name of CP Plus, I consider they are a single legal entity. Therefore, I am satisfied the creditor is clear on the signs and the PCN.

The appellant states the allegation of obstruction is prohibitive, not contractual. No evidence of obstruction or reasonable mitigation. In this case, the parking operator has provided images of the signs, which outline the contractual terms and conditions. The signs advise vehicles must be parked within a designated bay but also not parked causing an obstruction. I am satisfied the terms and conditions are a contractual agreement. As the vehicle was observed parked causing an obstruction the terms and conditions were not met. I acknowledge the appellant has provided images to show there were no road markings or signage advising no parking. However, when parking on private land it is the responsibility of the motorist to comply with the terms and conditions. I am satisfied the signs are clear to drivers not to park causing an obstruction. The Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice (The Code) sets the standards its parking operators need to comply with. Section 3.1.3 of the Single Code of Practice contains the requirements for signs displaying the terms and conditions. The signs must be placed throughout the site, so that drivers have the opportunity to read them when parking or leaving their vehicle. The terms and conditions must be clear and unambiguous, using a font and contrast that is be conspicuous and legible. Within the parking operator’s evidence pack, the operator has provided photographic evidence of the signage at the site, along with a site map demonstrating the distribution of the signs throughout. Having reviewed this, I am satisfied that the signage is sufficient to bring the site’s terms and conditions to the attention of motorists and consider that the appellant was presented with a reasonable opportunity to review them before deciding whether to park. Section 14.1 of the Code states that where controlled land is being managed on behalf of a landowner, written confirmation must be obtained before a parking charge can be issued. In this case, the parking operator has provided copies of its witness statements.
Upon review of the statements, I am satisfied it demonstrates the operator has the authority to issue parking charges on the land. The appellant states manual taken photographs do not prove the breach. Section 5.1 of the Single Code of Practice states that parking operators must allow a consideration period of appropriate duration, subject to the requirements set out in Annex B to allow a driver time to decide whether or not to park. In this case, the driver has not parked in accordance with the terms and conditions displayed on the signs. Therefore, the consideration period has ended.

The parking operator has provided date and time-stamped images of the vehicle parked which clearly show the vehicle parked causing an obstruction. After considering the evidence from both parties, the driver parked causing an obstruction and therefore did not comply with the terms and conditions of the site. As such, I am satisfied the parking charge has been issued correctly and I must refuse the appeal. Any questions relating to payment of the parking charge should be directed to the operator.



8
Google Street View Location Poyle Lane, though I note it is outdated but can be used in cross reference with the TRO plan linked further down: https://maps.app.goo.gl/3BHDUMSRAsdziUBp7

Essentially, 44 tonne artic is heading west along Bath Road, they are meant to turn right to continue on Bath Road but he is concerned by an unexpected “no motor vehicles sign (except for access and buses)”, and wants to verify the route with his traffic controller and the site first.

So, he continues round the left turn bend on Bath Road where the road becomes Poyle road, and drives south down Poyle road.

There is no width restriction or any other restriction heading south.
At the first roundabout, he turns onto Colndale Road industrial estate (which is a dead end estate) to turn around and check the route.

After verifying the route, he heads back down west on Colndale Road, and at the roundabout turns right to head back up north on Poyle Road.

The 2024 road plan shows there were signs for the 2.7m restriction placed on Poyle Road, to the south of this roundabout only. Our vehicle entered it from Colndale Road from the east. Where the old 2024 plan shows no advance signage.

Heading up north on Poyle Road, the 2024 road plan for the old 2.7m restriction shows advance signage about 25 yds before the restriction and right before the junction into Mathisen Way (the restriction is therefore about 15 yds after that junction).

Mathisen way is a dead-end industrial estate.

Advance Signage
So, the first thing I’m wanting to know is, is advance sign placed 25 yds before the potentially dangerous restriction, and right before the last potential junction to turn around at, adequate for a 44 tonne articulated lorry? Bear in mind that was likely the first advance signage it passed for the restriction and a HGV, can’t stop on a dime and has a large turning circle with the potential for accidents.

As far as I’m aware it is not adequate. A “last place to turn around” is not the same as a “last alternative route”. Is this correct? And is there specific regulations, TSM guidance or case law that establishes this?

Council Refusing to Provide TRO Deposited Documents
Furthermore, I was also wanting the Council to clarify if there is actually signage on Colndale Road as ultimately if that signage is there, I agree the contravention occurred. If it wasn’t there, then our vehicles was given no opportunity to take an alternative route at that roundabout.
The Council sent me the 2025 Experimental orders, but the 2.1m width restriction TRO had 2 pages of parts of the map zoomed in, but not the complete thing. And it looks like it is possibly parts of the incomplete proposed plan I found which doesn’t indicate any advance signage at all or highlight the alternative routes.

I have asked multiple times now for the road signage plan as part of the deposited documents that they have a duty to make publicly available for viewing under LATOR 1996.

I said i was happy to pay the £35 if they were able to provide the road plan and provide evidence of signage on Colndale Road.
They first told me they would not respond to my emails regarding the PCN and if I am unhappy with the decision, to appeal to the Tribunal. Even though I only requested clarity on the signage.

I then responded essentially saying they have a legal obligation to provide the TRO and deposited documents and I required the information in order to make an informed decision on whether to pay £35 or appeal to the Tribunal.
They responded yesterday, with 4 pictures of 2 signs, that are both south of the Colndale Road roundabout on Poyle Road. Where our vehicle had not been. They also attached the Road/Sign plan.... from the 2024 Order with the 2.7m restriction. And they said the usual “We confirm our signage is compliant withe TSRGD 2016” and “there is adequate advance signage”.

I responded last thing yesterday, saying that they haven’t provided evidence of where our vehicle has been, on Colndale Road, which I specifically asked for. I said the photos attached were irrelevant as our vehicle never passed them and that they sent me the plan for the 2024 2.7m width restriction, but I require the 2025 2.1m width restriction plan. I said unless they are able to produce those, we will have no choice but to appeal to the Tribunal and an Adjudicator can come to their own conclusion whether their signage is compliant with TSRGD 2016, LATOR 1996 and TSM.

They responded this morning saying “Thank you for your follow up email. Please proceed with the statutory appeals process. Kind regards.”
I have responded making it clear that their legal duty to make the TRO and Deposited Documents available is separate from the PCN statutory process. They seem to think that it was one or the other: provide the documents or let it go to tribunal. If they have them, they are withholding them. If they don’t exist, they confirm that surely.

Is this a Procedural Impropriety in itself?


Sorry it's so long.


14 November 2024 TRO published on the Council website: https://www.slough.gov.uk/downloads/download/1318/poyle-road-bus-gate-tro-and-poyle-road-tro

A proposed road plan for an experimental 2025 TRO can also be found on their website:
https://slough.citizenspace.com/transport/poyle-road-experimental-northbound-width-restricti/

The Google Drive link below is to a folder containing:
1.   The PCN from Slough
2.   My Appeal Letter
3.   Notice of Rejection
4.   Picture of vehicles route.
5.   The published November 2024 2.7m Width Restriction TRO
6.   The published November 2024 Bus Gate TRO
7.   The published Road/Signage plan as part of the 2024 Width Restriction TRO deposited documents.
8.   A proposed road plan for a experimental 2025 2.1m Width Restriction TRO.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/16sE2ie_AsgD6VAKnPb-kutsrhkro_Kiz

9
Because our head offices only sent me the NoR yesterday, the charge is already at £160. So, there is actually nothing to lose by appealing to London Tribunal.
Don't appeal by post, send the completed forms by email to queries@londontribunals.org.uk

If you'd like me to represent you don't send any forms anywhere and please contact me directly.

I will have to email it, but our head office lost the sodding forms  :-\
If the NoR is issued/posted on Thursday 18th December, it would not be deemed to be served until the second working day after, right? So, it is deemed to have been served Monday the 22nd.

The Tribunal appeal has to be delivered within 28 days. So, I would be pushing my luck sending it by post.

Also, I called TfL yesterday, they told me I can send in my appeal to London Tribunal without the forms. They didn't fill me with confidence but don't have much choice.

Thanks for the offer to represent, but I am an employee of a company so it's not upto me.

Lastly, what would the adjudicators test be for this contravention and appeal? As in, is the test whether a reasonable driver seeing the right turn arrow could miss or understand the upright signs on the traffic lights? That is what happened. But I can't deny that the driver should have seen and understood the upright signs on the lights, but evidently the road marking diverted his attention to safely making the manoeuvre and complying with the yellow box junction whilst waiting for a gap in the oncoming traffic in order to safely make the right turn and also clear the box junction

10
TfL essentially have said that yes. But would the London Tribunal? We know TfL don't have the greatest understanding of traffic contraventions, they reject appeals that would win at Tribunal everyday of the week except Sunday, but twice on Monday.

The road markings clearly contradict the signs on the traffic lights, had the road markings had supplementary writing saying "RIGHT TURN BUSES ONLY" I might be more accepting.

Because our head offices only sent me the NoR yesterday, the charge is already at £160. So, there is actually nothing to lose by appealing to London Tribunal.


12
I have this PCN for a driver at work from TfL for a 50r Performing a prohibited turn (no right turn). Going along Camden Road, there is crossroads with St Pancras Way. Now, approaching these lights in the left lane is a forward arrow. In the right of the two lanes is a forward arrow with a right arrow coming off it (as one symbol/marking) - https://maps.app.goo.gl/9vGtueZmyfYycfbT6?g_st=ac

I understand that the signs on the traffic lights indicating no right turn onto St Pancras Way are statutory directions and may take precedent over road markings, but surely the road markings should not straight up contradict the signs, that just seems wrong. I had appealed it which I have linked below and they rejected it and provide FOI requested data that I never requested. There is also just two cases on the London Tribunals register of appeals for CAMDEN ROAD NORTHBOUND JW ST PANCRAS WAY, both were from 2025 and both allowed as TfL decided to DNC. One of those appeals was from a company so I have contacted them to ask what their grounds of appeal were for the appeal.

Anyway, I'm trying to figure out if I can win this appeal. Common sense and the requirements for signage and road markings to be clear and not ambiguous tells me this isn't right.

TfL PCN - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HY17COjevhWIoleFtr0sI_vc0S5MTZEu/view?usp=drivesdk

My appeal letter - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tuYjFxawYq8U7VNbVex04HLLbRkIIwIK/view?usp=drivesdk

Notice of Rejection - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vSx6Y1F_7RTWlzU81PuDbCD68fMTni2y/view?usp=drivesdk

FOI & TRO - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hIbAhVPBucngsxZ13aNSca2NBMX7m-QY/view?usp=drivesdk

13
I got the Tribunal decision this morning, unfortunately it just has the standard spiel about 'the EA informing the Tribunal that it will not contest the appeal and the adjudicator allows the appeal without considering the evidnece etc' - In hindsight perhaps if I hadn't requested a full written decision regardless of whether the EA decide to DNC, on Monday, then the EA wouldn't have been notified and wouldn't have uploaded the DNC on Tuesday. And the hearing would have taken place today and my evidence would have been looked at, I could have said my piece, and I would have got the reasoned written decision.

But, if as you say, the hearing would have been cancelled as the EA submitted no evidence anyway, would they still have considered my evidence and written a reasoned decision or would it be the same as a DNC?

Sorry for the questions, just like to better understand.

14
I would ask them why.

Probably not worth the time. They have no obligation to give an actual answer to that, they can just say internal deliberations, or there's no recorded information held, or Legal Advice exemption or any crap like that.

Interestingly I have had no notification from London Tribunal even that the DNC was submitted. When do they plan to notify me that I don't need to attend the Tribunal video call hearing?  ???

I did send a request to the Tribunal on Monday requesting that they give a reasoned decision & case summary even if the council do decide to DNC. As it would be beneficial for our (company I work for) future compliance, and to prevent the same thing happening again by putting pressure on the council to fix the defects.

Whether they will do that or if they even do that at all, I have no idea but thought I'd ask them

15
PM sent.

Ahh I see, thanks! I will keep that in mind in future.

The council submitted a DNC to the Tribunal portal yesterday.

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 9