Free Traffic Legal Advice

Ah. Bugger.

Hello there,

I was driving south from Leicester towards London on the M1 at 23:11 on 1st Sept. There had been roadworks and a lowered temporary speed limit of both 40 and 50. I had passed these (or so I thought) some time before. Rather importantly (I suspect) I had not seen a National Speed Limit Sign, but as the roadworks were some way behind me and the four lanes were completely free of anything but tarmac and other cars, I assumed we were back to 70 mph. I knew I was approaching a camera, (bewteen J15 & J 14,) but kept on going at 70, so was rather surprised when the camera flashed. A good couple of miles further on, more temporary speed limits appeared on the gantries for 50 mph.

I was (understandably, I hope) annoyed, especially as it wasn't a lack of concentration, but clearly an honest mistake, but I am fully aware that has no bearing in law. I suspected I didn't really have any excuse and that I was going to be done for 70 in a 50, or even worse, a 40. A couple of miles later, temporary speeding limit signs for 50 mph reappeared, and some minor roadworks, so I assumed that was that.

However, the NIP came through today, and I was caught doing 70 in a 60 (Exceed a variable speed limit'.) Whilst I realise my case may not have got any stronger, I am certain I saw no 60 mph signs before the camera - and there was certainly nothing on the gantry the camera was on. Hence my surprise at being flashed, and my subsequent surprise at the limit being 60.

I was wondering if anyone thought I had any chance of appealing a ticket for a lack of signage around the 60 mph limit and if there was any law for how close a sign must be to a camera to make it valid?

I could complain about an unnecessary speed limit on a completely clear stretch of four lane motorway but I know that is pointless and would rightly get short shrift here. But I wondered if anyone thought I had any right to ask for further information or appeal?


Many thanks
Alistair

And four more photos, including the security gate

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Well, that ship has clearly sailed as I have admitted to being the driver. I am dropping my kids off at school this morning and going to check out the signage, take some photos and speak to the reception staff at the Leisure Centre. I will then report back.

Thank you for your very detailed reply, and apologies my appeal was not up to scratch. I thought I had a reasonable case, especially as I had successfully appealed a similar ticket when the neighbouring supermarket updated its parking regulations. I was hoping proof of being a customer would be enough, but as you say, we are not dealing with reasonable people.

I'm also quite irritated by the fact they call themselves 'Civil Enforcement' to add a veneer of officialdom and respectability. The fact they immediately dropped their pants to £20 makes me think a) I may have a case and b) don't let the bastards grind you down.

The Leisure Centre re-opened in Sept '23. I'm pretty sure the parking system wasn't immediately operational - I have asked a couple of friends and left an enquiry on a local Facebook forum. However, I'm pretty sure it's been in place longer than four months.

I am planning to head down there tomorrow to check signage and speak to the reception staff who are at least usually reasonably helpful. I will report back with my findings and then perhaps we can see if you think I have a case for appeal. All help very gratefully received and I do hope not a waste of your time.

Kind regards
Al

Hello,
I received a fine from my local leisure centre, which has changed its parking system since I last used it. I received a PCN from 'Civil Enforcement' which sounds very official... for £100, £60 within 14 days. I appealed. Here is the text of my appeal:

"I took my two children to the soft play at Hartham Leisure Centre on the 14th Dec. Previously, there has been no parking registration system in operation in the car park. I am unsure when one was introduced. Not only was I not aware there was a new system, the signage indicating there was one was clearly not visible (enough) to a busy parent trying to get his children into a Leisure Centre. I attach a bank statement showing that I was using the Leisure Centre that day (the date is the 16th as the 14th was a Saturday, so the transaction did not go through til the Monday.)
You will also see from the statement I went to Hartham yesterday (3/01/24.) This time I did notice much bigger signs for the parking and a request to register your vehicle that I am almost certain was not there on the 14th, though I may be wrong. When I enquired behind the desk about the new system, I was told I had to go past the security gate to register my details as that's where the machine is. As I am not a member, the machine was inaccessible without a member of staff letting me through. This seems a very poor system if you are expecting non-members to register - especially those using a soft play for their kids which means by definition they have other things on their minds!

Whilst I fully accept I did not register on the 14th, I hope that I can appeal this parking ticket as a) I genuinely had no idea there was a new system in operation, b) my family were clearly customers of the leisure centre at the time as my bank statement proves, c) the signage was not obvious enough to indicate there was a new system in operation and d) the machine on which to register your car is out of sight of the entrance behind a closed security door which is not open to the public.

I will of course register my car on every visit from now on, but on this occasion I hope I can be excused the PCN for the reasons stated above."
____________

I received the following reply today:

We refer to your recent correspondence.
We have carefully reviewed your appeal and/or evidence provided taking into consideration all the
points you have raised in relation to this Parking Charge Notice.
On this occasion, your appeal has been unsuccessful for the following reason:
We have no record of the above vehicle being registered to be exempt from the parking restrictions in
place on the day in question.
It is the responsibility of the driver to ensure they adhere to the parking terms.
There are many clear and visible signs displayed on the site advising drivers of the regulations in force
and we maintain a continuous log confirming that the signage remains in place.
It is therefore our position that the Parking Charge was validly issued because of the above detailed
breach of the terms and conditions set out on signs in the car park.You have now reached the end of
our internal appeals procedure.
You now have two choices:
1. Settle the debt at a reduced rate of £20.
2. If you are not satisfied with our decision, you may appeal to the Independent Appeals Service
(POPLA) via www.popla.co.uk
---------------

My question is very simple - I'd probably rather pay the £20 than go through all the hassle, but my feeling is if they've already reduced it to £20, they must feel they're on shaky ground. I refer particularly to the fact I did not see the signage (so it can't have been that clear) and very much to the fact the machine to register on is behind a security door in the building non-members do not have direct access to.

It seems especially irritating that the parking is free, so it would not have cost me anything to park even if I had realised I needed to register. Obviously I didn't, but I was hoping understandable human error, poor signage and absolutley no intention to avoid paying for parking might make a full appeal worthwhile.

If anyone could help suggest whether they think I have grounds for a successful appeal to POPLA I would be most grateful.

Alistair