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Messages - seanjean123

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1
Private parking tickets / Re: APCOA PARKING CHARGE
« on: May 22, 2025, 12:26:09 am »
We've never seen a single APCOA case go to court, much less seen them ever win one. I'd be willing to bet more than the £5 at stake that APCOA will cancel if you appeal with my wording. If they don't, I'd be willing to bet more that POPLA would uphold a subsequent appeal.

The wording suggests the £5 would be retained, but that's only relevant if you think you owe them money.

Thanks for the response. I have looked into APCOA appeal website. There is a drag down to appeal as the vehicl keeper. Which i will use. Also the appeal template you gave me do i have to sign my name underneath ?

2
Private parking tickets / Re: APCOA PARKING CHARGE
« on: May 20, 2025, 01:24:41 pm »
Quote
If i appeal do i lose the five pounds discount?
If you appeal you will have to pay nothing, as the charge will be cancelled, either directly by APCOA or on appeal to POPLA.

Is that a guarantee ? Sorry just trying to be certain.

At the back it says if your appeal is unsuccessful you have the right to pay at the rate applicable when your appeal was made, permitted that your appeal was made within 28 days of receiving this notice.

Please does this mean the GBp 5 would be retained as long as the appeal is made within 14 days

3
Private parking tickets / Re: APCOA PARKING CHARGE
« on: May 20, 2025, 12:23:40 pm »
Could you please show us the back of the notice? This is the first one I've seen since the new barrier-free parking set up at Manchester.

As Manchester Airport is subject to byelaws, it is subject to "statutory control", and as such, not relevant land for the purposes of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act, meaning they cannot hold the keeper liable. You could therefore appeal along the lines of the below:

Dear Sirs,

I have received your Parking Charge Notice (Ref: ______) for vehicle registration mark _______, in which you allege that the driver has incurred a parking charge. I am appealing as the registered keeper of the vehicle. There is no obligation for me to name the driver and I will not be doing so. I note from your correspondence that you are not seeking to hold me liable as the registered keeper, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("The Act").

Even if you were seeking to do so, as the Manchester Airport Lower Drop Off Forecourt T1 is not "relevant land" as defined by The Act you are unable to recover the charge from me, the keeper.

I am therefore unable to help you further with this matter, and look forward to your confirmation that the charge has been cancelled. If you choose to decline this appeal, you must issue a POPLA code.

Yours,

If appealing online, make sure there are no drop down boxes etc. that force/trick you into revealing who was driving - you are appealing as the keeper, and saying nothing about who was driving. If you are not the registered keeper of the vehicle, with the V5C in your possession, tell us, as the appeal will be different.

I have attached the back. If i appeal do i lose the five pounds discount?

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4
Private parking tickets / Re: APCOA PARKING CHARGE
« on: May 20, 2025, 12:21:17 pm »
For Manchester Airport T1 drop off you pay £5 online by midnight the following day (https://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/parking/pick-up-and-drop-off/).

Did you?

Do you have a receipt for payment?

Did you use the right car registration for payment?

If not, is it really worth £5 arguing? How much is your time and effort worth?

The car park used electronic plate registration. So on exit before barriers open i had to pay 20 pounds on my card. WHy have they discounted so bad. Feels like they want to just reap people off cos they know no one will be willing to fight it

The £20 to exit suggests that you were in a barrier controlled car park.  The £100 reduced to £5 suggests you also went through the drive through drop off area which has no physical barriers.

Potentially. I remember missing my way and having to speak to someone to get direction. Did not drop anyone off or pick anyone. As seen in the video it was for a minute and a half. Do they have a case ?

5
Private parking tickets / Re: APCOA PARKING CHARGE
« on: May 20, 2025, 10:36:52 am »
For Manchester Airport T1 drop off you pay £5 online by midnight the following day (https://www.manchesterairport.co.uk/parking/pick-up-and-drop-off/).

Did you?

Do you have a receipt for payment?

Did you use the right car registration for payment?

If not, is it really worth £5 arguing? How much is your time and effort worth?

The car park used electronic plate registration. So on exit before barriers open i had to pay 20 pounds on my card. WHy have they discounted so bad. Feels like they want to just reap people off cos they know no one will be willing to fight it

6
Private parking tickets / APCOA PARKING CHARGE
« on: May 20, 2025, 10:26:12 am »
Hi,

Supported needed here pls. I received a PCN notice for my trip to manchester airport. I have not replied but i paid for parking at Manchester Airport. I arrived 19:45 and exited 21.42 and paid for parking (GBP 20). I hav proof with bank statement. Not sure what this is about. I didnt do a drop off or pick off. Probably missed my way a few times. The ticket also pays GBP 5.00 if paid within 14 days. Please what should i do ?

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7
The authority were not permitted to use address B therefore IMO your primary grounds are:

Procedural Impropriety:
Failure to serve the Notice to Owner using relevant particulars obtained from DVLA as regards the owner at the 'material time'.

As the authority will see, the NTO was addressed as follows:

Your name
********(address B).

The regulations define 'material time' as follows:

“the material time” means the time when the contravention giving rise to the penalty charge is said to have been committed.


Therefore the 'material time' was 7 November 2024 at which time your 'relevant particulars' held by DVLA were:

You..
******* (address A)

Your relevant particulars were amended by DVLA on ****(enclose a copy of your V5C and highlight the 'docref' date) following your change of address on 26 Nov.

The authority were obliged by virtue of Regulations 6 and 20 of the General Regulations to use ******* (address A) for the purposes of serving the NTO and this failure constitutes a procedural impropriety.

The contravention did not occur
**essentially the arguments given in your previous representations.


As per cp's post, put these together yourself and post a draft here.

Hi please any advice on how best to proceed

8


We note the comments made in your represenations. However the photographs show that only one wheel of your vehicle was on the paved/roadway area. In your representations you refer to a tarmacked area. Please be aware that the roadway in this area does not have a tarmac surface.


FFS, Bedford does resort to desperate measures.

Hi please any idea how best to address this ?

9
What was the date on the NoR - you've cut it off!

Did you post reps as per Reply#52?

NOR date = 16/01/2025
Yes i used reply 47 and 52.

10
rejection of representation letter

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11
Hi all,

I received a notice of rejection of representation from Bedford borough council.

Reason was
The photgraphy of the contravention, which may be viewed on bedford borough council website, show that your vehicle was parked partly on the grass verge

Signs are displayed in this area informing motorists that parking is not permitted on the verge or footway. Please find the enclosed copy of the plan showing the extent of the verge and footway prohibition in this area.

We note the comments made in your represenations. However the photographs show that only one wheel of your vehicle was on the paved/roadway area. In your representations you refer to a tarmacked area. Please be aware that the roadway in this area does not have a tarmac surface.

We also confirm that the details of registered keeper of the vehicle, used on the Notice to Owner were provided by DVLA.

The council is satisfied that the contravention did occur and there is insufficient mitigation to enable the Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) to be cancelled.

Please how best to proceed ? I am being asked to either pay GBP 70 which is against the initial PCN which said if i challenge the PCN, the 50% discount would be provided if it was unsuccessful. So they amount due should be GBP 35. I was told after 28 days it will become GBP 105. I was told i could appeal to a trafficpenaltytrobunal as well

12
@seanjean123 I would add the map you've posted in reply 17, and the following text under the heading "The contravention did not occur":

In any event my car was not parked on The Embankment nor was it parked on a road at all: my car was parked in the private car park of the Swann Hotel, which is not a highway nor is it a road to which the public have a right to pass and re-pass, it is private land. While the council may own the freehold title to the grass surrounding the car park, the grass surrounding the car park is not a highway or road either.

It may well be that there is some local bylaw prohibiting parking on grassed areas, but that cannot be enforceable by means of a code 62 PCN unless the grassed area in question is part of a road within the meaning of section 142 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, which cannot possibly be the case in the circumstances.

It follows that even if my car had been parked further forwards with all four wheels on the grass, the contravention alleged could not have possibly occurred.


Do not send a letter by post, that causes no end of problems, the best option is to send a representation via the council website and also take a timed / dated screenshot of the confirmation page. If the text doesn't fit in the representations box, put the representation in a PDF file and in the representations box just say "see attached representation", do not cut down the text of the representation to make it fit in the box.

Having had a good look at your thread, my view is that you basically cannot lose based on the point I have articulated above, but Bedford are a bit thick and may well force this to the tribunal. As you have a winning appeal, the discount is somewhat irrelevant at this point.

Thanks for this. Please is this what you mean ?

1. The Contravention Did Not Occur
a) Vehicle Was Not Parked on a Footway or Verge
The council’s photographic evidence shows that my vehicle was parked entirely on the tarmac hardstanding of the Swan Hotel’s car park. None of the wheels were fully positioned on a footway, verge, or non-carriageway area.

b) De Minimis Encroachment
Even if the council contends that a portion of the vehicle (e.g., bumper or part of a wheel) marginally overhung the verge or grassed area, this is a minor encroachment falling under the principle of de minimis non curat lex ("the law does not concern itself with trifles"). Such a trivial encroachment caused no obstruction or harm and cannot reasonably justify enforcement.

c) Ambiguity in Boundaries and Signage
The "No Parking on Verge" sign visible in the council's photographs applies to the grassed areas beyond the sign, not the tarmac where my vehicle was parked.

There is no clear demarcation between the hotel’s private car park and council-controlled land.
The sign does not indicate that parking on the tarmac before the sign is prohibited.
This lack of clarity makes enforcement unreasonable and the contravention unenforceable.

d) Misapplication of Contravention Code
The alleged contravention under Code 62 applies specifically to parking with wheels fully on a footway, verge, or non-carriageway area. This code does not apply to the location in question, as my vehicle was parked predominantly on tarmac. If the council believed a different restriction applied, a different contravention code should have been used.

In any event my car was not parked on The Embankment nor was it parked on a road at all: my car was parked in the private car park of the Swann Hotel, which is not a highway nor is it a road to which the public have a right to pass and re-pass, it is private land. While the council may own the freehold title to the grass surrounding the car park, the grass surrounding the car park is not a highway or road either.

It may well be that there is some local bylaw prohibiting parking on grassed areas, but that cannot be enforceable by means of a code 62 PCN unless the grassed area in question is part of a road within the meaning of section 142 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, which cannot possibly be the case in the circumstances.

It follows that even if my car had been parked further forwards with all four wheels on the grass, the contravention alleged could not have possibly occurred.

13
Please just an addition... do i need to respond by post or via email ? Also i responded to the PCN within 2 weeks which should have meant a GBP 35 fine not GBP 70. Why is GBP 70 on NTO ? It is almost as if the PCN and PCN challenge never happened

14
The authority were not permitted to use address B therefore IMO your primary grounds are:

Procedural Impropriety:
Failure to serve the Notice to Owner using relevant particulars obtained from DVLA as regards the owner at the 'material time'.

As the authority will see, the NTO was addressed as follows:

Your name
********(address B).

The regulations define 'material time' as follows:

“the material time” means the time when the contravention giving rise to the penalty charge is said to have been committed.


Therefore the 'material time' was 7 November 2024 at which time your 'relevant particulars' held by DVLA were:

You..
******* (address A)

Your relevant particulars were amended by DVLA on ****(enclose a copy of your V5C and highlight the 'docref' date) following your change of address on 26 Nov.

The authority were obliged by virtue of Regulations 6 and 20 of the General Regulations to use ******* (address A) for the purposes of serving the NTO and this failure constitutes a procedural impropriety.

The contravention did not occur
**essentially the arguments given in your previous representations.


As per cp's post, put these together yourself and post a draft here.

Hi thank you. This is what i am thinking of sending. Pls can you have a read and let me know if its good to go or if i need to make any changes.

Subject: Formal Representation Against Notice to Owner for PCN BF55509843

Dear Bedford Borough Council / Parking Services,

I am writing to formally challenge the Notice to Owner (NTO) issued on 27/12/2024 for the alleged contravention of "parking with one or more wheels on any part of an urban road other than a carriageway (footway parking)." I believe the NTO is invalid, and I request its cancellation based on the following:

1. The Contravention Did Not Occur
a) Vehicle Was Not Parked on a Footway or Verge
The council’s photographic evidence shows that my vehicle was parked entirely on the tarmac hardstanding of the Swan Hotel’s car park. None of the wheels were fully positioned on a footway, verge, or non-carriageway area.

b) De Minimis Encroachment
Even if the council contends that a portion of the vehicle (e.g., bumper or part of a wheel) marginally overhung the verge or grassed area, this is a minor encroachment falling under the principle of de minimis non curat lex ("the law does not concern itself with trifles"). Such a trivial encroachment caused no obstruction or harm and cannot reasonably justify enforcement.

c) Ambiguity in Boundaries and Signage
The "No Parking on Verge" sign visible in the council's photographs applies to the grassed areas beyond the sign, not the tarmac where my vehicle was parked.

There is no clear demarcation between the hotel’s private car park and council-controlled land.
The sign does not indicate that parking on the tarmac before the sign is prohibited.
This lack of clarity makes enforcement unreasonable and the contravention unenforceable.

d) Misapplication of Contravention Code
The alleged contravention under Code 62 applies specifically to parking with wheels fully on a footway, verge, or non-carriageway area. This code does not apply to the location in question, as my vehicle was parked predominantly on tarmac. If the council believed a different restriction applied, a different contravention code should have been used.

2. Procedural Impropriety
a) Failure to Serve the NTO Using Relevant DVLA Details at the Material Time
The council has failed to comply with its statutory duty to serve the NTO using the DVLA-registered address of the vehicle’s keeper at the material time, as required by Regulations 6 and 20 of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007.

The regulations define "the material time" as:

“the material time” means the time when the contravention giving rise to the penalty charge is said to have been committed.

The alleged contravention occurred on 07/11/2024, at which time my registered address with the DVLA was:

[My Name]
[Address A]

I moved to my current address on 26/11/2024, and my vehicle’s DVLA records were updated on 01/12/2024 (see enclosed copy of my V5C logbook, highlighting the ‘DocRef’ date). The NTO was issued to:

[My Name]
[Address B]

This demonstrates that the council improperly relied on my updated DVLA details (post-01/12/2024) instead of using the registered keeper’s details at the material time (07/11/2024).

b) Breach of Statutory Obligation
By failing to serve the NTO using the DVLA-registered address at the material time, the council has breached its statutory duty. This constitutes procedural impropriety, rendering the NTO invalid and unenforceable.

Request for Cancellation
Given the procedural impropriety and the fact that the contravention did not occur, I respectfully request that the NTO and associated PCN be canceled.

I look forward to your confirmation that this matter has been resolved. If the council does not agree with my representations, I am prepared to escalate the appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal .



15
NTO posted 27th Dec.
Last day of 28-day period for making reps is therefore 27 Jan.

You have plenty of time....

..which is why I'm trying to nail the issue of addresses.

Date of contravention is 7 Nov. at which time you were the registered keeper living at address A which is the one still on your V5C;

You moved from address A to address B on 26 Nov;

(edit)

The NTO is addressed to B and not A.

Unless you have notified the authority in writing that you are the owner and that for the purpose of serving formal notices they should use address B and not A then IMO you win irrespective of the merits of the contravention. 


I did move house on the 26th of nov. I updated my V5c a week later due to all the moves (01/12/2024)

and....

I never notified DVLA of any.


Still causes me confusion!

OK let me clarify

Date of contravention = 07/11/2024
Address on day of contravention = A
Challenged the contravention online - 16/11/2024. When challenging the contravention, i did not admit to being the driver but i signed my name at the bottom
Moved homes from address A to Address B - 26/11/2024
Updated VSC to show address B on 01/12/2024
Received a NTO on the 28/11/2024 at Address B with my name on it. The NTO was sent to address B directly

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