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Messages - bailfyr

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1
Get some photos of the signage if you can, to support your case that these only refer to cameras, there is no information whatsoever that warns of the closure hours. So the signage does not match what the Traffic Order says.

Here is Adjudicator Jack Walsh allowing an appeal at this location: -
Quote
2240567372

It should not come as any surprise to this enforcement authority that I am allowing both these appeals in relation to alleged contraventions of the prohibition on motor vehicles on Royal Albert Way. In these appeals the evidence of signage is somewhat different to that which used to be submitted to this tribunal by the EA (see for example Waigo v. LB Newham – case 2240055133, decided on 3 May 2024 and 2240418033 Kristen Lum-Borg v. LB Newham, decided on 7 December 2024 but with the alleged contravention on 4 August 2024). However, it remains wholly inadequate to prove what the EA needs to prove for Mr. Khan’s appeals to be successfully resisted, namely that the signage was adequate on the occasions in question.


Although not spelled out in his notices of appeal (as it probably should have been) the basis for Mr. Khan’s appeal was predictable; inadequate signage. In a very clear and moderately expressed statement opening his appeal, Mr. Khan argued that the two ‘no motor vehicles’ signs upon the exit from the roundabout were insufficiently visible to the motorist whilst it remained possible to change course and avoid contravening the prohibition by staying on the roundabout. He also addressed the evidence of what the EA describes as advanced warning signage.


I have had regard to the EA’s evidence of signage, including the ‘new’ ‘advanced warning’ signage that did not feature in appeals in relation to this alleged contravention until recently. There is, however, a fundamental problem with this evidence. The photographs are not time and date stamped but are marked October 2024 and January 2025, depending on the photograph. There is no evidence was to when the ‘new’ signage was installed. The alleged contraventions in this case were in August and September 2024, pre-dating the photographs. Given that the signage had not been updated in the appeal 2240418033 Kristen Lum-Borg v. LB Newham, where the alleged contravention was a little earlier in August 2024, I am unable safely to infer that the ’new’ signage as shown in the photographs was probably in situ on the occasions in question in this case. That means I proceed on the basis that the signage was as in Kristen Lum-Borg v. LB Newham. In that case, for the reasons I gave in some detail in the decision, I found that the signage was wholly inadequate, essentially for the reasons given by Mr. Khan in these appeals. In particular, I found that the variable message electronic signs failed to provide motorists with adequate information about the prohibition because the signs failed to specify the prescribed times. I further found that there was no advanced warning signage at the entrances to the roundabout.


For the same reasons, I do not find on the balance of probabilities that the signage was adequate in relation to these two appeals.

I also address the alternative scenario that the ‘new’ signs were present. These small, text-based advanced warning signs are, in my view, wholly inadequate to inform road users of a prohibition on motor vehicles upon the exit from the roundabout. They are placed, and not very prominently, some distance from the roundabout on the approach roads. They also fail to state the prescribed hours of the prohibition.


As I mentioned in previous appeals, the advanced warning signs warning of camera enforcement are irrelevant.


These appeals are allowed.

and here is Adjudicator Edward Houghton (key sentence in bold and underlined)

Quote
2250163019

The Appellant’s case is that the yellow warning sign was insufficiently visible.

Although I note the Council’ comprehensive site photographs I remain of the view that this is a case where advance warning of the upcoming restriction is required for clarity, particularly as this is a restriction only in operation at certain times of day. Certainly the illuminated signs are not invisible, but they are encountered by motorists driving round a roundabout and by the time they come into full view the motorist may well be committed to the exit. The Council has put in place yellow signs, an implicit acknowledgement that advance warning is at least desirable. However as I have stated on previous occasions these signs give no warning as to what the restriction actually is. I can see no good reason why the Council should not use the prescribed signage available to it in Schedule 12 Part 7 Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (route sign with the No Motor Vehicles symbol) which is widely used by Councils in London and elsewhere, and which if properly sited would give the necessary information and remedy the defect.


As I am unable to be satisfied on the facts that the prohibition relied on was sufficiently clearly indicated the Appeal is allowed.

Thanks for that. Plenty of details to support my appeal there. I will try to go out tomorrow morning and get the photos of the signage. Good to see that they acknowledge that it's impossible to take avoiding action once you are committed. I will let you know of any decisions

2
The usual tosh from this deeply useless council !  Yes, there are warning signs about camera enforcement, but nothing whatsoever to tell you that the road is closed between 2200 and 0300 !! So the signs in place do not convey the full meaning of the Traffic Order. I would take them to London Tribunals on this one. Yes, I know you have to risk the full PCN penalty, but there are previously successful appeals that you can cite, despite what they say.

However, it's up to you, it's your money not mine.


OK. I think I should probably try and appeal it further then. What does an appeal to the tribunal look like? Will I have to go and take photos of the sign and explain that there are no times etc? How do you think I should approach it? Never been this far down the PCN fighting rabbit hole.

3
There are a couple of cases on the London Tribunals statutory register that can be quoted to support your case.

So as we expected - they did deny the appeal. Interestingly they noted some points about signage which I found interesting so I recorded the same journey one evening to see if I found any signs - and I did. There is a sign just prior to the roundabout on the entry road that I take into it saying that there are traffic enforcement cameras. Now - was that there when I received this PCN? I couldnt tell you. I've driven this route many times and perhaps I may have not noticed this new sign.

Eitherway - my opinion is that you still have to be in the right lane to take this exit. Once you notice the sign and see it in view as you approach it - it is almost too late to avoid and involves crossing across other lanes of traffic. The point that taking evading action is dangerous still stands.

They have offered a reduced £80 PCN if paid within 14 days, as per usual. What is your opinion on this? In their rejection letter, they do make note of the signage that they have, I assume, now installed as a result of the appeals. Do I have a leg to stand on on the point that to even see this enforcement sign - you have to be almost committed to the entry onto the road?

See below for their letter + the sign in question that I may or may not have been there when I drove by :)

Rejection Letter
Traffic enforcement warning

4
There is an excellent chance of getting this overturned, but you'll have to take them to London Tribunals as t the council will never give way, they love the money too much.

Two points, (1) totally inadequate signage of the restriction. (2) The current signage also does not reflect the traffic order. Whilst the traffic order places a restriction of access in the "small hours", there is nothing outside those hours to indicate a restriction exists.

Just think about the variable speed limit motorways. There are always signs at the start and end of the variable speed limit sections advising you of that. So even if nothing is displayed in the speed limits signs, (and this is a very common situation), you know when entering that a lower limit than the 70mph limit may appear in front of you.

Here there is nothing at all.

Fantastic. Then I'll await them to deny this appeal and come back for any advice onto the next appeal. They cant keep getting away with it.

5
Private parking tickets / Re: P4 Parking PCN for not displaying permit
« on: February 04, 2026, 06:52:18 pm »
Also have just checked with the estate agent/building managers - they basically wont/are saying theres nothing they can do and wont get involved. Apparently the dispute needs to be settled via P4..

6
Ok I suppose it makes sense for the restrictions at those hours since I do often see people racing up and down those roads..

But yes - completely unavoidable from someone who is not familiar with this and driving this route.

Thanks for your input, I have submitted the appeal and await to see what they say. I suspect they will reject it thinking I'll just pay up
The only place you will win this is at London Tribunals.

Nehwam are a quite disgusting council on this issue; they have done 'Sweet FA' since losing cases at LT. They continue to thumb their noses at the adjudicators because most PCN recipients just cough-up. There really needs to be a process whereby an adjudicator can state that on current signage PCNs are unenforceable, and if they continue, their enforcement powers are suspended. Will we ever see such a process ? Well , don't hold your breath !

Do you think I should just pay up if theres zero chance of getting this appealed? I've no idea what appealing at a tribunal looks like.

7
Ok I suppose it makes sense for the restrictions at those hours since I do often see people racing up and down those roads..

But yes - completely unavoidable from someone who is not familiar with this and driving this route.

Thanks for your input, I have submitted the appeal and await to see what they say. I suspect they will reject it thinking I'll just pay up

8
Private parking tickets / Re: P4 Parking PCN for not displaying permit
« on: February 01, 2026, 03:06:29 pm »
Hi all,

So after appealing both PCNs with similar appeals to my above post - they requested my name and permit after which they rejected my appeals and asking for a £20 reduced penalty per PCN.

Shall I appeal to POPLA with the same? Their response is below:

Thank you for your correspondence received on 30/01/2026, which has been passed for our attention and which
we have read with interest. We have reviewed the case and considered the comments that you have made.
Further to and in response to your appeal, P4Parking have been contracted by the landowners or agents thereof
to ensure that vehicles are only allowed to be parked on the land with authority. This authority is dependent upon
the rules as laid down by the landowners or bodies acting on behalf of such estate, land or development.
P4Parking have the authority to issue a Parking Charge to any vehicle that is parked contrary to these regulations.
It is the responsibility of the person parking to demonstrate the correct display of the relevant permit and or
adherence to the rules governing the parking of the vehicle(s) within the grounds. The area where your vehicle
was issued a Parking Charge is subject to a policy requiring all vehicles to park in accordance with the stated
parking terms. The specific breach you have been issued the charge for is:
NO VALID PERMIT ON VISIBLE DISPLAY
Although we sympathise with your concerns, at the time of your vehicle contravention and subsequent issuance
with a Parking Charge as the vehicle was in breach of the above and therefore, was correctly charged under the
power given to us by the landowner. When parking on private land, a motorist freely enters into an agreement to
abide by the conditions of parking in return for permission to park. It is the motorist’s responsibility to ensure that
they abide by any clearly displayed conditions of parking.
With regards to your appeal for the Parking Charge issued and having inspected all data available, which includes
your letter and contents of appeal, photographs taken at the time of the Parking Charge issued by the warden and
all additional 3rd party information available to us, we must make the following points very clearly.
It is the duty of the driver to read the signage placed on the development. The signs on the development clearly
state "All vehicles parked within these private grounds and not displaying an authorised parking permit or parked
outside of this development's parking regulations will be charged via the issuance of a parking charge.
Enforcement may take place at any time."
No Z2384228
Having read your statement, it is the motorist responsibility to read the warning notices on the development and
abide to the parking regulations and adhere to the rules governing the parking of the vehicle(s) within the grounds.
Our patrol officer has produced photographic evidence confirming that no valid parking permit was on visible
display at the time of the contravention. Please find the pictorial evidence attached.
As per the terms of parking within the managed development, it is the driver’s responsibility to ensure that a valid
permit is clearly displayed on the front windscreen or dashboard of the vehicle at all times while parked. Failure to
do so renders the vehicle in contravention of the parking regulations.
As you have provided permit evidence, on this occasion we have applied a reduced charge of £20, valid if paid
within 14 days from the date of this notice.
The patrol officer has carried out his duties correctly as instructed by the landowner. Motorists parking on private
land must comply with the advertised terms and conditions, therefore the patrol officer had reasonable cause to
issue a Parking Charge on your vehicle.
Therefore the Parking Charge was issued correctly according to the instructions set out by the landowners, please
see attached pictorial evidence below.
After careful consideration, we must advise you that your appeal for this Parking Charge has been REJECTED.
We are therefore unable to cancel the Parking Charge as it was issued correctly. We have now extended the
discounted payment period by 14 days to allow you time to pay the discounted settlement amount. Please now
make payment of £20 to reach us by 15/02/2026 or £100 to reach us by 01/03/2026. We must advise you that
once the discounted settlement rate passes it will not be offered again. You have now reached the end of our
internal appeals procedure, you have the legal right to submit a second appeal to POPLA. P4Parking cannot deal
with any subsequent appeal relating to this parking charge notice.
Furthermore, it is our duty to inform you that if you should choose to submit to POPLA (Parking on Private Land
Appeals), you will lose all the opportunities to pay the discount rate. If you want to appeal, you must do so within
28 days of the date this notice of rejection has been sent.
If your appeal is refused then the full parking charge will be due as the time for any early payment discount offered
by the operator will have passed. Do not pay the charge if you are appealing. If your appeal is allowed you have
nothing to pay. If your appeal is refused, in order to avoid any further action by the operator, you should then pay
the full parking charge within 28 days.

9
Its clearly a money printing scam/trap that they've got going on there. Conveniently putting that there, which is a 40 MPH limit every single time I've seen it other than this one time at night. Let me also add that there was absolutely no reason for vehicles to be blocked from accessing this road. It was clear, empty, no roadworks ocurred on the days before or after..

Here is the GSV, this white car is essentially my car. They have be on video driving into the exit with the right hand sign visible on the video.

GSV Contravention


Here is the route ROUTE

10
Shameful that they have continued giving out PCNs despite this obvious flaw in the signage placements.

I have found a recent case for this exact location against NEWHAM council where they indeed ruled that it was inadequate. Case Reference 2240055133 - is this what you meant?

11
I plan to appeal with the below draft letter based on the fact that this sign is placed at essentially at the start of the road. Theres no way to safely stop, go elsewhere without it being dangerous considering the road it leads to and comes from is a 40mph road - which often drivers are going much faster than.


I am writing to make a formal representation against the above Penalty Charge Notice on the ground that the contravention did not occur.

My challenge is based on the fact that the signage at this location (Royal Albert Way / Royal Albert Roundabout) is inadequate and fails to provide sufficient advance warning to motorists, as required under the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996.

1. Inadequate Advance Warning There is insufficient advance signage on the approach to the roundabout to warn drivers that this specific exit is restricted to "No Motor Vehicles." A driver approaching a busy roundabout must focus on traffic flow and lane discipline. Without clear, prominent advance warning before entering the roundabout, a driver has no way of knowing the exit is prohibited until they are already upon it.

2. Late Positioning of Signs / "Point of No Return" The prohibition signs (Code 52m) are located at the very entrance of the exit. By the time these signs become clearly visible to a driver, the vehicle is already committed to the turn. At that specific moment, attempting to avoid the restriction would require a driver to either: a) Stop abruptly in moving traffic on a roundabout, or b) Swerve dangerously across lanes to re-enter the roundabout circulation. Both options would present a significant danger to other road users. Therefore, I was "locked in" to the manoeuvre by the road layout and the late placement of the signage.

3. Request for Evidence If you do not cancel this PCN, I request that you provide:

    Evidence of the advance warning signage in place on the approach I took on the date in question.

    The relevant Traffic Management Order (TMO) authorizing this restriction.

    Maintenance logs proving the signs (if digital/variable) were fully illuminated and functioning correctly at the exact time of the alleged contravention.

Conclusion Given the lack of adequate advance warning and the safety risks involved in taking evasive action, I submit that this penalty is unfair and should be cancelled.

Regarding the Discount Period: Although I am submitting this shortly after the 14-day window, I ask that if you decide to reject this representation, you exercise your discretion to re-offer the discount period to allow me time to consider your response.

Yours faithfully,

12
Rotten bit of luck lately, after being slapped with 2 PCNs from P4 Parking for parking in my own bay I have now received a PCN from Newham Council for 'Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles (motor vehicles). I take the road in question back home almost every week, once or twice. I never actually noticed but when I watched the video - I realised one of the speed signs at the start of this stretch of road off the roundabout is an electronic display. After going down here maybe 100s of times - I probably never looked at it and didn't notice it changed.

To make things worse, I received this letter yesterday for some reason - meaning it has now gone over the 14 day period I had to pay the reduced amount.

Is there anything I can do?

PCN IMAGE
CAR + SIGN

I only have a picture of the front - I can include the 'evidence' they have of me which is just a close up of my car + a video driving down a road.

Thanks

13
Private parking tickets / Re: P4 Parking PCN for not displaying permit
« on: January 22, 2026, 09:27:03 pm »
If you show us a draft of an appeal like that (written as the keeper, not the driver) we can advise. Something along those lines would be a good starting point.

Hi there -

Below is my draft attempt at appeaking the PCN at the current stage (no NtK). I note that one of the PCNs also note that I was parked for 1 minute which is not a reasonable observation period. As you can probably tell, the use of AI was used to draft the letter. What are your thoughts?


To the Appeals Department,

I am the Registered Keeper of the vehicle in question and the lawful resident of the property where these Parking Charge Notices (PCNs) were issued. I am challenging these charges on the following grounds:

1. Primacy of Contract (The Lease) My right to park in this car park is granted by my tenancy agreement (lease). My lease allows for parking and contains no requirement to display a permit, nor does it agree to pay penalties to a third party such as P4 Parking.

Under the legal principle of Primacy of Contract, the terms of my lease take precedence over any signage you have placed on the land. You cannot unilaterally alter the terms of my tenancy agreement by putting up signs. As a third-party agent, your contract is with the landowner, not with the residents who have a pre-existing right to occupy the land.

I refer you to the binding judgment in Jopson v Homeguard Services [2016] B9GF0A9E, where the Senior Circuit Judge established that a parking management company cannot override a tenant’s right to park by requiring a permit that is not mentioned in the lease. The judge ruled that the parking company’s signs were an offer to "visitors" or those without a pre-existing right to be there, but were incapable of forming a contract with a resident who already has a superior right to park.

2. No Loss Suffered / No Trespass Since I have a right to park via my lease, I am not trespassing. Furthermore, as the parking is for residents, the landowner has suffered no financial loss due to my vehicle being parked there.

3. Insufficient Observation Period. Regarding the PCN issued on 15/01/2026, your own evidence states the vehicle was observed from 18:04 to 18:05. This is an observation period of one minute. This is a violation of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice (Section 13), which mandates a reasonable grace period and observation time to allow a driver to read signs or obtain a permit. One minute is manifestly unreasonable and proves no proper parking management was taking place, only predatory ticketing.

Conclusion As the lawful occupier with a primacy of contract that does not require a permit, I am not bound by your signage.

I require you to cancel these PCNs immediately and remove my personal data from your records. If you choose to reject this appeal, I require a POPLA verification code. Be advised that at POPLA, I will rigorously assert the Primacy of Contract argument, provide my lease as evidence, and claim my full costs for the time spent dealing with this unlawful harassment.

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In the future, never appeal a Notice to Driver (NtD) until you have received the Notice to Keeper (NtK). By law, the NtK cannot be sent until at least 28 days after the NtD was issued if they want to hold the Keeper liable.

To send the NtK, the parking company must request the Keeper's data from the DVLA. This request breaches your GDPR rights under the Data Protection Act because it violates the KADOE contract, as the parking company lacks a lawful basis to issue Parking Charge Notices (PCNs) if your lease or tenancy agreement has supremacy of contract.

Sorry to revive an old post/comment. Does this mean that if you receive a NtD (the PCN attached on the windshield) you should hold off on starting off the appeals process that is on that PCN until you get the NtK through the post and appeal that?

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Private parking tickets / Re: P4 Parking PCN for not displaying permit
« on: January 19, 2026, 06:58:51 pm »
Can anyone give any insight to above query from me pls?

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