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Messages - randomtask

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1
Thanks both for your quick and very helpful (and interesting) inputs.

2
Great points, thanks. Agree that there's an estoppel argument (and that, in any event, nobody is particularly likely to look too kindly on the PPC notionally accepting the transfer of liability and then attempting to backpedal following their own failings).

I only care because I expect the hire company may well end up paying the PCN and then attempting to charge it back to me, hence I'll be copying them on my appeal to the PPC putting them on notice that, if they've complied with POFA then they have no liability and, if they haven't, that it's their problem and not mine - and that either way I won't be responsible for any charges they incur or choose to pay as a result.

Expect that should do it.

Out of interest, are you aware of any authority on this point:

However... By sending the NtH to the hirer, the PPC may be seen as having accepted the information provided by the hire company, even if it was incomplete. In doing so, the PPC is acting as if the liability has been transferred to the hirer. This could imply that the PPC is choosing to pursue the hirer based on the available information, regardless of the missing documents.

3
Are you sure that the Hire company didn't provide the required documents to the PPC? The fact that they didn't include copies of those documents with the NtH, is not evidence that the RK has not complied with PoFA 13(2)(b) and ©.

I'm not sure, but working on the basis that if the hire company did provide the docs then the PPC won't be able to pursue either them or the hirer (so I'm unconcerned). So I'm only really interested in the situation if the hire company didn't provide the docs.

The fact they have sent the Hirer an NtH shows that they have accepted the transfer of liability away from the Hire company.

This is interesting and what I was alluding to in the OP. Does the fact that the PPC has "accepted the transfer of liability" have any legal significance, i.e. does it prevent them PPC from being able to go back to the hire company under the original NTK once they realise they can't recover from the hirer? And, if so, what's the basis for that assertion?

4
Thanks - that's really helpful and accords exactly with my understanding!

5
Nothing authoritative, only the results of internet searches throwing up posts on forums like this (although not this one in particular) - unhelpfully, none of which I've saved.

My reading of the legislation is that the PPC could indeed revert back to the RK under the original NTK (although they would then likely be out of time to issue a fresh NTH, provided that more than 28 days had passed since the issue of the original NTK).

Do you agree?

6
Apologies if there is an answer to this elsewhere but I have searched and couldn't find it.

In circumstances where:

1. a PPC has issued a NTK to the RK (hiring company);
2. The RK has responded to the PPC identifying the hirer but failed to provide a copy of the hire agreement etc;
3. The PPC has nonetheless issued a NTH to the hirer identified by the RK (but naturally fails to provide the accompanying documents required by para 14(2) of POFA Sch 4),

the NTH of course fails to comply with POFA... BUT what is to prevent the PPC going back to the RK hiring company and pursuing them under the original NTK, given their failure to comply with para 13(2) of POFA Sch 4? In which case the RK would then be liable to pay the PCN, would likely do so, and the hirer would then be left to fight it out with the RK as to whether or not the RK is entitled to pass on the charge to the hirer under the terms of the hire agreement?

Everything I have seen suggests that the PPC cannot revert to the RK once it has issued the NTH (so the hirer is effectively home free) but I've not been able to find an explanation as why, pursuant to POFA, that is the case.

Any help gratefully received.

Thanks

7
Thank you.

Hire Agreement

So I should include reference to those defects in my application for adjudication? Are they all included in the LLA & TFL Act 2003 or should I look elsewhere for the statutory references?

8
Just bumping this, with apologies if that's frowned upon. If so, I'll wait patiently. Just wanted to make sure it didn't get lost  :)

9
Thanks, I have modified the OP and uploaded requested info accordingly.

10
Thanks. Happy to post the PCN etc if required but I thought it simpler not to as I'm only looking for advice at this stage on a specific but generic point, i.e. the existence of a right to appeal a moving traffic PCN issued in London on the grounds of procedural impropriety.

I had thought that s1(4)(e) was probably the only available route but it didn't really seem to fit, but I suppose it would be bizarre if there was no right to appeal for this reason simply because the PCN was issued in London.

11
Am I correct in understanding that, for PCNs issued for moving traffic offences in London (under the London Local Authorities and TFL Act 2003), procedural impropriety is not a valid ground for appeal, and there is therefore no effective remedy against PCNs which are defective/non-compliant?

Specifically, I have received a PCN from LB Enfield which I believe does not contain the statutorily required information and the LA has failed to address that point in their NOR, so I am now looking at London Tribunals but concerned that they actually don't have authority to consider an appeal on that basis.

PCN

Formal Representations

NOR

Image 1 - Number Plate (close range)

Image 2 - Number plate (long range)

Image 3 - CCTV

Video

Street View - Note that GSV is out of date and doesn't show the current bus gate or current signage.

I am not the registered keeper - the vehicle is leased. LA advise that they served PCN on registered keeper on 27/5/24 prior to transferring liability to me.

TIA

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