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Messages - mitaab

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1
Hi all

Please can you help me with this PCN. I have already challenged it but as usual they have rejected it.

However, they have still offered me to pay the 50% discount.

I am relying on your expert opinion. What are the chances of winning at the Tribunal, or shall I pay the £80?

PCN pages:

https://ibb.co/27zvMFW0
https://ibb.co/CKmHXn57
https://ibb.co/KcNNpM39
https://ibb.co/wNp43pqB

Challenge/Representations: Some how it is not letting me attach the document, so I pasted the text.

"Dear Parking Manager

Please note that I am challenging the PCN referenced above. My grounds are as follows:


1.       The signage at the entrance to Tavistock Avenue E17 is insufficient and inadequate. When travelling southbound on Blackhorse Lane E17 and making a left turn into Tavistock Avenue, there are no visible signs warning that there is restricted entry further down Tavistock Avenue. The only sign at the entrance which warns of "No Through Road" is positioned at such an angle that it is not visible to drivers entering from this direction.


2.       The signage in Tavistock Avenue where the restricted entry starts is not at the entrance to the road nor at any natural junction. The prohibition signs, CCTV signs are positioned further than 30m from the entrance to Tavistock Avenue. This causes confusion for any driver who having driven to this point without contravening any regulations, and once having assimilated the information on the various signs, is faced with an unexpected U-turn type manoeuvre which is difficult to carry out in an area of road constricted by parked cars. Furthermore, the "No Entry" markings on the road itself are confusing in conjunction with the signs, as they contradict the right of cyclists and those using non-motorised forms of transport to proceed. It felt like a trap.

In light of the inadequate, perplexing, and confusing signage I request that the PCN be cancelled."


NoR pages:

https://ibb.co/Gv7ZDkdd
https://ibb.co/HLdsfWGM
https://ibb.co/Lhhk9Lw6

2
Hi

I hope all is well with you all.

Please find below the PCN pages:

https://ibb.co/dwTxBtFx

https://ibb.co/9kD6gZHF


With my limited knowledge, the PCN does not say what happens if the PCN is not paid or Representations not made, in terms of the Charge Certificate or the charge will be increased by 50% to £240. I learnt this from @Hippocrates.

Second observation, they make references to “Enforcement Notice” (EN). Is that equivalent to Notice to Owner? If so, why do they use it? The PCN was issued using CCTV camera and it was posted to the correct address. My understanding is that usually they issue NtO if initially the PCN is manually attached to the vehicle by a traffic warden, then NtO is to follow. Please can you explain the purpose of the EN.

Also, the photographic evidence provided by the PCN does not show any signs displaying the hours of operation (restriction times) to which the contravention is alleged. They used a CCTV facing the car rather than from the back of the car. Is that permissible?
 
Sorry for the short notice. I think I have three days left before the expiry of the 50% discount period.

As always, thank you in anticipation.



3


I'll PM you. If I lose this, I'll pay half.

That is what I call an offer I can not refuse. You are on!

But before that, please can you elaborate on the link between James Bond's urine and the NoR, loool.

4


No do not pay. Let's see the NOR and your formal reps. please.

As requested:

Please find attached the Representaions (via email), as a text file.



NoR pages:
https://ibb.co/Zz1kMZQx

https://ibb.co/QFpM8MqN

https://ibb.co/3ybhNxVG

FYI, the 14 days discount period is running out soon.

Thank you.

5
Hi

I made representations on 22/05/2025. However, I received the Notice of rejection on 16/08/2025. This is way beyond the 56 days rule. Is this rule applicable in this case and worth taking it to the tribunal, or shall I pay the £80?

6
The FTLA team!

You must be the most "love to hate" people by the local authorities as you continue to make holes in their revenue purse.
The Enforcement Authority has informed the Tribunal that it will not contest my appeal against the
Penalty Charge Notice, and I am no longer liable for it. 

@Pastmybest & @Hippocrates, much obliged! You turned what initially appeared to be a lost cause into a winner.


7
Just picking up this thread. If you want me to represent you, I would rather file the appeal and would need an unredacted NOR please.

I PMed you. PLease check your inbox.

By the way, I was on the London Tribunal website. There is no option for the "procedural impropriety" ground. All the arguments mentioned in the post, would come under what ground?

8
Hi

I am about to submit my appeal. Please can I have a draft for the grounds of appeal.

Many thanks.

9
send a PM to hippocrates from his post he has it in mind to represent you. I sadly cannot as I am unwell and not going to commit to something I may not be able to do on the day. I will however draft your skeleton arguments if Hippo is unable to help

Wishing you a speedy recovery.

10


Second, and more importantly the vehicle is still moving out of the box junction when the CCTV footage stops. The Adjudicator must see the entire driving of the vehicle in and out of the box junction. I find this to be a serious omission.





Thanks for that @Chaseman.

I am afraid my car was stationary inside the YBJ for about 14 seconds before the CCTV footage stops.

I wonder if the argument presented by @The Slithy Tove can also be used:

It could also be argued that the exit was clear (i.e. no offence) when the car entered the box junction. It could easily have slotted in the left hand side of the lane, partially alongside the black vehicle. (Why don't people take the obvious "escape routes" rather than stopping in the box junction?)

11
Take your pick as to your representative.  ;D




Tough decision to make. ;D


I have made a formal complaint under The Nolan Principles.


Please enlighten me. What are the Nolan Principles, and what was the formal complaint about?

12
I made this argument to the TPT with regards to a fail to concider It won the day as the adjudicator did not find on the other arguments


Extract from the appeal decision by the adjudicator

3. When Mr Yousef made both informal and formal representations to the council in respect of the PCN he referred to the grounds of appeal as detailed above but in rejecting those challenges the council did not address the limb of his appeal that was concerned with the method of payment using a premium rate telephone number. It was therefore Mr Allen’s submission that in failing to respond to this ground of appeal there had been a procedural impropriety on the part of the council, a further ground of appeal and that the PCN should not then be enforced. Mr Allen provided case law in support of his submission, specifically The King (On the application of Halton Borough Council) and Road User Charging Adjudicators and Damian Curzon [2023] EWHC 303 Admin, provided at evidence tab 23 and it was his view I should determine the appeal without adjourning to enable the council to respond to his submissions in these respects.
4. In considering Mr Allen’s submissions it was my view that the council should have a further opportunity to address the issues relating to the use of a premium phone line to pay the PCN and the issue of procedural impropriety and I adjourned the hearing to enable the council to respond by January 8th 2024. To date the council has not responded and so I have considered the appeal on the basis of the evidence that is available to me.
5. In The King (On the application of Halton Borough Council) and Road User Charging Adjudicators and Damian Curzon [2023] Mr Justice Fordham considered the extent to which there had been procedural impropriety on the part of the council and or their agents in the consideration of representations made to them following the issue of PCNs and he said, “The "procedural impropriety" enquiry is straightforward and clear-cut. It would ask: has there been consideration at all?” and whilst the council did deal with the other limbs of Mr Yousef’s appeal, I cannot find there has been any consideration of the submissions in respect of the premium phone line and for this reason alone I would find there has been a procedural impropriety and I would allow the appeal.

Much obliged, @Pastmybest.

Prior to receiving your post, I was hesitating between paying the £80 and going to the Tribunal. Now I have decided to take it all the way to the Tribunal.

13
Notice of Rejection!

Received the NoR, in which the LA completely turned a blind eye to my ground of representations, as recommended by @Hippocrates, and didn't mention a single word about it. Is this act not considered 'frivolous, vexatious or wholly unreasonable'?

NoR_1:

https://ibb.co/MxvXh3Mn

NoR_2:

https://ibb.co/TDgQzvCZ


14
We need to know what is in the panel below the Flying Motorbike sign. It is above the camera sign. So don't cough up just yet.

The photo below should show the details of the sign more clearly:

I am running out of the 14-day period.



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