Free Traffic Legal Advice

If you had mail redirection it's possible your previous logbook address wasn't correct but paradoxically moving and updating the V5C may be a benefit.

Contravention date 14/05/25
new V5C was issued on 14/06/25

This is just a month so an out of time declaration should succeed.

What date did you move?

The correct forms for moving traffic are PE2/PE3.

We usually recommend paying now as a successful OOT gets a refund and reset but you do have a bit of time before a visit (which adds £235, which you really don't want and I wouldn't trust them an inch).

It is a lot of money to pay now but I could use credit card. Rather not to need to pay extra £237 or have more stress about their visit, I work from home a lot.

I actually moved from the old address in January 2025 but my living situation was unstable. I had set up RM redirection for 3 months to my friends address until 12/04. I then found a place and when I renewed RM redirection (for 6 months) I gave my current address and I’ve been here ever since. I actually forgot about VC5. I think I changed it because of this contravention. I entered the street but did u turn literally within seconds as I realised it might be pedestrian zone only. I then remembered I’ve not changed VC5 and thought I’ll do it just in case I’ll get PCN. I thought I got it wrong because I’ve not heard for ages about it.

Thank you. I had a look at PE3 form. So in the box for reasons for not receiving the PCN shall I put just that I changed address within a month of contravention and that despite setting up redirection service with RM I’ve not received the PCN?

Are those forms to cancel enforcement from CDER group or to completely cancel the PCN or reverse it back to PCN?

Hi. I’m not sure why they cancelled it, tbh. I was expecting it to go to Tribunal. I sent them what I mentioned in reply 17, emails between residents association and local MP outlining severity of the letters delivery issue and photo of this issue mentioned in our estate newsletter. 2 days after I sent this additional evidence, I called and requested the DVD. We think maybe that’s why they cancelled it. after watching the video/dvd we think they were basing contravention on stopping in that red bay rather than double red lines. When watching the video you can see at 9:23:47 A BLUE CAR HAS JUST LEFT THE RED BOX BAY AND OUR CAR STARTED TO REVRSE TO THE BAY. THE PHOTOS FROM THE TFL WEBSITE ARE DATED 21:23:50, 21:24:00, 21:24:38 WHEN THE CAR IS ALREADY IN THE BAY.

(Sorry for the capital letters they are my own notes I made after seeing the DVD.) So based on that we think that the contravention they claimed we committed hadn’t  actually happened. Could it be they checked after I asked for DVD and realised it? Or because there was email trail with local MP regarding the letter delivery- the most unlikely reason in our opinion. Either way, I’m happy

Hi,

So I popped back to where alleged contravention happened. Bad luck there was a highway maintenance track making it harder to see the bay marking.

Nonetheless, there is a red route sign at the beginning of the bay, to the left (just before the black bin, on the photo I attached there is a maintenance truck, the sign is facing the truck)). That sign says "red route; no stopping on any day 7am-7pm; except 10am-4pm loading max 20 mins, disabled max 3h". I attached the photos.

However, We were talking and wondering whether the PCN was issued not for stopping in the bay but on the bus stop and/or on double solid red lines. If you look at the google street view you posted https://maps.app.goo.gl/4ehjRmy9UMUazjis6 after the bay marking there is a bus stop and double red line. From the traffic cameras photo it looks like car is on the bus stop, overlaps with double red lines. We think that's what the PCN is for actually.

Supposedly we got the PCN for stopping on double red lines/bus stop, would you be able to the tell from traffic camera photos with certainty that we stopped on double red lines? Is the evidence just from this camera if all the photos they provided with PCN is from the same angle? I've not ordered DVD from the tfl yet - planning to do that tomorrow.

Thanks for your help

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Continuation from previous reply. Attached documents: Late representation disregard front and back, representation update page 1 and 2 from today (07 May).

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Quote from: H C Andersen on May 04, 2024, 08:47:46 pm

What's happening at present is that because there's going to be float time in the process i.e. until TfL in their infinite wisdom decide to issue an OfR, posters are trying to anticipate the inevitable issuing of another PCN (as will happen) and look at the circumstances of the contravention itself e.g. looking at the traffic order etc. and process issues regarding the PCN. This is why your VRM is needed as this gives us access to TfL's data e.g. photos, PCN history etc. It's your choice to provide or not.

This.

In any case if you eventually end up with an appeal to the tribunal, regardless of the outcome your name and number plate, together with the reasons for the adjudicator's decision, will all be published on the statutory register at https://londontribunals.org.uk/ for the whole world to see. So the real question is, what is there to gain in hiding this information until after the case is over?

We've had plenty of cases where people have not followed our advice, have decided they knew best, and it didn't end well, see these cases:

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/warwickshire-cc-pcn-code-24-not-within-markings-of-bay-lakin-road-warwick/
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/walking-pushing-my-bike-in-a-restricted-zone/

In the event the appeal is ultimately lost it might be that someone looks at the details (once they're all published online anyway) and goes "ah-ha you could have argued X Y and Z", but at that point it's too late as you only get one shot at persuading the adjudicator, so it's better to go all the investigative work up-front.

@cp8759 Thank you. It is clearer to me wha you'd prefer to have the car's registration number for. 

I still do not feel comfortable with my car's registration details being on a public forum or anyone else having it, which combined with my PNC number notice will give an access to my sensitive data (email address) and my image on TFL's website - I am on the photos. I'm sure you can appreciate how some people will not be okay with that. While my car registration will be posted in the appeal eventually, it will not be linked to my personal image/photos, my email address (from which you will gain my last name) etc, and it will not be publicised on the forums like this. By providing you the car registration number it will expose me to scams and identity fraud that is not that challenging to achieve in the modern time by fraudsters. Regrettably my family has had some experience of sensitive info stolen and misused and dealt with aftermath and the negative consequences. Perhaps it makes it clearer why my position is the way it is, although to some it might seem ‘paranoid’. Upon considering your point and weighing in pros and cos I'm not going o provide the car registration details. However, it seems that you do not really need it anyway, as I can just upload everything here. I hope you can still provide help (that I deeply appreciate, by the way) and support while respecting my decision.

I attached traffic cameras photos and update of PCN status here (page 1, for page 2 and other documents see other replied that will be on page 2 of this thread). I’ll create a separate replies to include all the other relevant information (sensitive and identifiable information deducted) so it is easier to review. 

UPDATE WHERE I AM IN THE PROCESS

I have indeed provided additional evidence for TFL today that included email with resident association conforming the issue and copies of their communication with the Royal Mail and the local MP regarding this. Realistically I’ most likely will get Notice of Rejection that then will allow me to appeal to the London Tribunal. I think the London Tribunal will accept the appeal  under ‘The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case’ - because I have not received PCN due to Royal Mail letter delivery issues that I can prove and think the judge or whoever makes the decision would cancel the charge or increase.

@H C Andersen thanks for the link outlining procedures relating to PCNs. It re-assures me that it will not go straight into Country Court. In all honestly, because we are planing to move within couple-ish of years, I do not want to risk having the debt registered and CCJ on my record and difficulty having it ‘set aside’ or cancelled and still showing up 1-2 years later. So. I’d rather pay extra £80 if Tribunal rejects the appeal  and try to get this money repaid by Royal Mail instead.

From that link H C Anderson sent:

“Notice of Appeal

This is the form which the enforcement authority should send you their Notice of Rejection. The grounds on which the adjudicator may allow your appeal are the same as for making representations:

* The contravention did not occur;
* You were not the owner of the vehicle at the relevant time;
* The vehicle was parked by someone in control of it without the owner’s consent;
* The vehicle is owned by a hire firm who have supplied the name and address of the hirer;
* The penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case;
* There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority;
* The Traffic Order allegedly contravened is invalid;
* The civil enforcement officer was not prevented by some person from fixing the penalty charge notice to the vehicle or handing it to the person in charge of the vehicle.
* The penalty charge has already been paid.

The adjudicator can only allow an appeal if one of these grounds applies. Adjudicators cannot allow appeals for other reasons, e.g. mitigating circumstances, although they can refer the matter back to the enforcement authority for reconsideration if there are compelling reasons for doing so.”

@cp8759 & @H C Andersen  do you think my appeal to London Tribunal under ‘ The penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case’ will be accepted? Are there any other grounds I can appeal the PCN charge that you can see with posted information below, including the photos? I think you mentioned wanting TFL to commit procedural impropriety. So far they have not been a procedural impropriety I use as grounds for appeal to the Tribunal?

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In parallel, please call TFL next week on 0343 222 3333 and ask them for a copy of the CCTV footage, they will send you a DVD in the post.

I can see photos of the cameras caught the intervention on the TFL website. They are very clear. Do I still need a DVD? Can they decline because I have photos on tfl website?  Is this to buy me some time?

@ Also please give us the number plate, as explained in the READ ME FIRST guidance, this should not be redacted.

my partner wasn’t too comfortable with advertising it and on public forum. Can I ask what is the registration number needed for? I genuinely do not know, not trying to be difficult.

@Teacholic this can likely be easily dealt with but before we can give you any advice we need to know for sure what has happened based on seeing the documents, rather than relying on your summary of what you think has happened. If nothing else because I suspect TFL might have committed a procedural impropriety, which could get the PCN cancelled altogether.

Please read the guidance here and post up all the paperwork you have received from TFL (we don't need to see the private parking charge you've referred to), and everything you've sent to TFL.

Hi. Thanks so much for thinking about this case more. I attached now the letters and late representation.

Hi guys. I attached the letters from the tfl.

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